Ciao ragazzi! Did you ever wonder HOW we got all the ancient texts after all these years? We didn't think too hard about it until this week when Taylor tells the story of Poggio Bracciolini, the 15th Century Italian Humanist who discovered many ancient texts hiding away in monasteries being copied over and over by monks. Poggio worked for 7 popes as a notary and scribe but would travel around Europe finding gems! Listen to learn more about his discoveries!
Ciao ragazzi! Did you ever wonder HOW we got all the ancient texts after all these years? We didn't think too hard about it until this week when Taylor tells the story of Poggio Bracciolini, the 15th Century Italian Humanist who discovered many ancient texts hiding away in monasteries being copied over and over by monks. Poggio worked for 7 popes as a notary and scribe but would travel around Europe finding gems! Listen to learn more about his discoveries!
Sources:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zg6zhBsJf4
Poggio Bracciolini: Travel and Treasure Hunting in the Age of Humanism
On the Nature of Things
https://classics.mit.edu/Carus/nature_things.html
Hi Friends! Our transcripts aren't perfect, but I wanted to make sure you had something - if you'd like an edited transcript, I'd be happy to prioritize one for you - please email doomedtofailpod@gmail.com - Thanks! - Taylor
Taylor: Americans should ask what their country can do for them
>> Taylor: In the matter of the people of state of California versus Orenthal James Simpson, case number ba zero nine. And so, my fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country.
>> Farz: And we are back on a lovely, lovely Wednesday. Taylor, how are you doing?
>> Taylor: I'm good. How are you? I'm good. I know. I'm gonna turn my camera around for 1 second to show you that something. We have our cameras off. They don't introduce the show.
>> Taylor: Look at this glass that I found at a thrift store. Can you see it?
>> Farz: That is so pretty.
>> Taylor: little, tiny, beautiful red glass. I'm drinking red wine.
>> Farz: I'm very jealous. I wish I had some red born right now.
>> Taylor: because I talked a little bit about the renaissance and, like, popes and stuff, and I feel like this is the kind of thing you want to drink when you're doing that.
>> Farz: I love that stuff.
>> Taylor: Yeah. So fun. But welcome to doom to fail. You can turn off our camera now. where's the Internet? we're doomed to fail. We're the podcast that brings you histories most notorious disasters and epic failures twice a week.
Taylor: How did ancient texts get to us? I know
I am Taylor, joined by fars, and today is my turn to tell a historical story.
>> Farz: Love it.
>> Taylor: Cool. Cool. Okay. so I. Okay, this is gonna be all over the place because there's a lot to read on this subject, but, yeah, the.
>> Farz: Catholic church's history is pretty long, and.
>> Taylor: It'S not even that. We're not even talking about the church, really. m but, I feel like I've been putting stuff together for all the stuff that we've talked about, and sometimes I'm like, oh, like, that totally makes sense. Like, I feel like I actually learned something. You know, I've been, like, reading about reading and reading about writing and books in a thing, and all this is kind of like. I'm like, darrell, totally makes sense what you think about them. Things like handwriting. Like, when did we agree on what all the letters should look like? You know? And how did ancient texts get to us? I know I've said before, like, there are things in stones, and I know that that's true in some cases. Like, the woman that Doctor Emma Southin, the author that I really like, who writes about ancient Rome, she has a book about women in ancient Rome, and there's a story that I think I want to tell in the future where it's, like, about the life of this woman. And you only know it because after she died, her husband built this, like, monolith to her and carved her life story in it. And we have bits and pieces of it. We don't have the whole thing. We have a little bit of it, and that's how we know about her. I. And things like, remember the battle of Hastings? That was in 1066, I think.
>> Farz: Yes.
>> Taylor: it was the big one where, like, the Norman or the Vikings were at the top of England, and the Normans are at the bottom of England. And, like, whatever we talked a while ago. but we know about that from a tapestry, which is wild, like a really long tapestry. We, like, kind of figure out what happened. so we. A lot of it we have to piece together. And a lot of it is like, what about all of the long things that we have, like the Iliad? How do we have that? It's like a book. so I had on my list of things to read, I have ongoing note app thing of potential ideas, and, I don't know where it came from, but I read the book the swerve, which is what I'm going to be talking about today. I read, a couple things for this. I read this book called, the swerve by, It's called the Swerve how the world became modern, by Stephen Greenblatt. So I read that. And then I also have, all my will Durant books. I bought his whole. He's a historian that obviously Dan Carlin really likes. So I pulled up the Renaissance, which is very exciting. And, ah, I bought and flipped through a book, an ancient text called on the nature of things by Lucretius.
We're talking about the Renaissance humanist scholar, Poggio braccolini
So those are the things that I read for this, because we're actually going to talk about kind of a winner today and not a loser. No, not a doomed to fail guy.
>> Farz: Doomed to win.
>> Taylor: Doomed to win. We're talking about the Renaissance humanist scholar, Poggio braccolini. Poggio braccolini.
>> Farz: I really should have lost one, honestly.
>> Taylor: I'm gonna say Pogio a lot. Oh, Joe. I'm gonna try best. so the thing that are the losers here as a failure is all the shit that we lost. Like, we know a lot of ancient work is lost because it's mentioned in other things. You know, it's like, oh, you know, this dude wrote 95 plays. They were all winners. And we have three of them, you know, which is, like, annoying and a bummer, to talk a little bit. A little bit about Poggio, about his life, his job, and then some of the stuff that he found and how he found it because he's found a lot of ancient stuff during the Renaissance. Cool.
>> Farz: Yeah. You know what you were talking about there made me think of how there's so many stories we don't know, even today, because nobody. What I was thinking, taylor, really was, if we didn't have jobs, I would just be filing FOIA requests and going, like, small, little towns and finding, like, cool little things. Because think about it, like, this is.
>> Taylor: Exactly what he did. I love this. Yes.
>> Farz: Dude, we only know. Okay, so one of the birthplace of, like, true crime being Truman Capote's book in cold blood. It's just by happenstance that Truman Cody went there and, like, had the time to sit there and interview that guy and talk to the townspeople and do all that. Like, how cool would it be to do that? You could do that like a million stories a day, tell your friends so.
>> Taylor: That we can have this be our job. And far as can just file a million FOIA requests.
>> Farz: Yeah, I'd wear one of those hats, you know, where it has a little card on the side of it and I look like a reporter. M little suspenders. That'll be so cool.
>> Taylor: Instead of writing press, just write, like podcaster on it. On your little card. Anyway, that's perfect. That seems really, really legit.
>> Farz: Yes.
Taylor: Poggio lived during the Renaissance and had beautiful handwriting
>> Taylor: so, okay, so Poggio lives during the renaissance. And the Renaissance is. Renaissance means rebirth. It's a rebirth of ancient things or finding ancient texts and essentially reading things that are pagan because they're about greek and roman gods. And it's obviously a time where there's a lot of pope stuff. During this time, there's going to be seven popes that Poggio works for. So, there's a lot of that happening, but we're in Italy in the 14 hundreds. Poggio was actually born on February 11, 1380. He, was born in a small town outside of Florence. also, just to mention that, you know, that I studied abroad in Florence, so I feel like I know a lot of it. so his parents weren't super well off, but his dad sent him to Florence to study. He studied Latin and became a notary, which was like, just under a lawyer as, like, a job. and eventually he's going to work for several popes as a secretary. So what that means is going to be writing their correspondence, keeping their notes. He's going to be very close, close with them, kind of understanding what they need. He's not a, he's not a, like, he's not super religious, really. He's just like, there a lot. And he has no interest in, like, actually being a priest or, you know, looks anything like that. He just is around because he likes reading and he likes writing. So one thing about Poggio is he had beautiful handwriting. And you can see an example of his handwriting on Wikipedia. And a lot of the way that he decided, and his contemporaries decided to start writing letters in, like, latin letters is how we get our fonts today because they're, like, easy to read and because you know how, like, if you try to read, and I know this is, like, later, but if you have, like, a, like a letter by Thomas Jefferson in his cursive, you're like, I can't fucking read this for shit. You know? So, like, a lot of stuff was, like, in Latin and, like, cursive or, like, squished together. There wasn't punctuation. There wasn't, like, I read something else about, like, the reason that we have lowercase letters. I don't know if this is true or not. Someone let me know. But, like, is because you had to be able to write faster at some point. And there was no way to do that if you're just writing block letters, you know? So, like, stuff like that is like, people really had people. Some had to figure it out, you know?
>> Farz: Did your kids learn cursive?
>> Taylor: No, Florence. But her teacher said that she would teach them cursive. But I think she just learned how to write her name in cursive. My mom's really up, in arms about it. She really is a cursive lover. But no, it seems like a useless skill now.
>> Farz: Right?
>> Taylor: Yeah, I mean, I just hope. I mean, like, they have great handwriting. Miles has great handwriting, but, like, I'm sure there's a shit ton of kids who have terrible handwriting, you know?
>> Farz: Yeah.
>> Taylor: Like, if you're not practicing it and you. I feel like you don't practice it after, like, third or fourth grade anyway.
>> Farz: You know, Taylor, we don't practice it when I. If I. If you told me to write my name right now, my hand would be sore by the time I finish. Well, I have a long name, but still. You don't know what I'm saying.
>> Taylor: No, I know. I have, like, I do a little bit of, like, writing, but not. No, not a ton. Not as I did, like, in high school, you know?
>> Farz: Yeah, yeah, I. Yeah.
>> Taylor: And I don't read a lot of handwriting, I guess, is also a big thing, too, you know? Like, I don't have the opportunity to do that.
Poggio ends up going to Rome and working for seven popes
so during this time, Poggio ends up going to Rome and working for the pope, and he will work for seven popes. So while he's there, he has a lot of exposure to texts and books. In the Vatican and around Rome, there are some libraries, but in the ancient world, in ancient Rome there were so many libraries, you know, it really was like very similar to what we have now, where you would like, go and read, you know, the scrolls. They'd be scrolls and they'd be in, you know, organized in some way. This is actually when one of the librarians in ancient Rome invents alphabetical order, which I fucking love. Thank you for that, because we need that. so while Poggio is in Rome, he wears robes like he's clergy, but he's not really clergy, he just hangs out. He has a mistress and they have 14 children, which is a lot, later when he's quite old, I think in his sixties, he marries an 18 year old and they have five more children. And the fate of his 1st 14 kids is unknown, which is, well, I.
>> Farz: Mean, I would assume a lot of them just died back then.
>> Taylor: Right.
>> Farz: They just had taken by eagles or fallen off trees.
>> Taylor: Mm someone in the, in the Vatican told him that he shouldn't have kids and dress like a priest. And he said, I have children, which is becoming a layman, and I have a mistress, which is an old custom of the clergy. So a little bit of a elbow to those guys, you know.
>> Farz: Yeah, they're all little.
>> Taylor: Seven popes that he works for. So in 1403, he became a scribe for Pope boniface the 9th, then hope innocent the 7th, then there's, I think we had talked about this at some point because there's an anti Pope John XXIII, because he's like, as when people thought there were two popes for some reason, like one was in France, one was in Rome or something. There's that, there's Pope Gregory XII. and then there's a weird time between like 1415 and 1417 where there's no pope because of the fighting, the western schism. I feel like I've said that before. It's a time when they were. Other people said they were the pope. then there's a pope, I'm trying to read these roman numerals and I don't know, there's a pope, Martin V, Eugene IV, and then Nicholas V. So, those are the ones that he works for. And he will eventually retire from working, for the pope, but he works for ap hope from about 1403 to 1455. So he spends a really long time there.
>> Farz: Are you pogo, like, p o g I o?
>> Taylor: Yes. Poggio. P o g g I. Okay.
>> Farz: Thank you.
>> Taylor: You're welcome. I also did not know what that was until, because I was listening to the book and I wrote it down totally differently, but that's what it is. Good question. So during the time when there were no popes and he was just kind of hanging out, being a literary guy, he decides to become a book hunter, which is dope and kind of exactly what you were saying with your FOIA requests, because he's hunting for these ancient texts because they existed, but they were hidden in monasteries because.
I think the idea that things on the Internet are forever is untrue
So first off, wait, I have a tiny, tiny tangent. Did you hear about how MTV News deleted all of their news articles from, like, 2000 before?
>> Farz: No.
>> Taylor: So this is in. Hold on to a little sip of wine. It was, in other news, somehow assembled upon this. And, like, people were really upset because they were like, that's music history. It's history. And it was deleted from MTV.com. who knows on there. Now, I would never go there, but, you know, but then the Internet archive does have it, so. Internet archive has a lot of things. But I do think, and I think I've said this before, the idea that, things that we're writing on the Internet are going to be around for all future history, I think that's not true.
>> Farz: You know, I mean, how do the archives exist then?
>> Taylor: well, I don't know, but I feel like something could happen and it could get deleted. You know, I just don't think it's. As for it's forever in, like, don't say something dumb. You're going to get fired. But it's not forever, as in, like, we should take it for granted. It's going to be around forever.
>> Farz: You know, that's a really interesting question. Like, how much storage space does the world use every day?
>> Taylor: Yeah. And it's so bad. Bad for the environment and ways that you can't think about. Otherwise you'll have an existential crisis.
>> Farz: Maybe we should be getting rid of.
>> Taylor: This stuff, you know? So, nothing is forever. But in the ancient world, what do you think people wrote on?
>> Farz: You know, papyrus.
>> Taylor: Papyrus. You know, papyrus is skin. No, papyrus is like a reed that's like flattened. but there is skin later, for sure. so in the ancient world, texts were on papyrus and they were in scrolls, hence the term scrolling, to read through a scroll. but as people read them and handled them, they would fall apart, which would happen. So a scribe would, in some cases, like, an enslaved person would read something out loud, and, like, 20 scribes would write what they were saying. And that way you could, like, make books a little bit faster, or someone would just be, like, copying it. Like, if you had a book that I wanted to borrow, I would say, as far as, can I borrow your book? I'm going to give it to my enslaved person. They're going to copy it. I'll give back to you in, like, a month. You know, that would be the job, as you do so, which the slaves could read? Yes, that's a good question. In some cases, yes. And they were actually, like, very well taken care, not, very well, you know what I mean? But, like, it was a better job than being, like, another kind of enslaved person, because you. It was a really important skill to have got it. So that was your enslaved job quote. Job that you repeated a little bit better, which is probably still terrible sweet, but a little bit better.
So there's things that we've heard about the library at Alexandria burning down
So there's things that we've heard about, like the library at Alexandria and how it, like, burned down and we lost all those texts. I think the truth is somewhere in the middle, like, it didn't burn down all in one day. I was just reading about it, like, very briefly, but Julius Caesar was, like, in the harbor, and he, like, burned some boats, and that burned part of it. And then more of it started to, like, fall into disrepair. And as the roman, republic fell and the roman empire fell, and then we went into, like, the dark ages. I know that we don't say that anymore, but you know what I mean? And it just kind of, like, disappeared. but it did at one point exist and have hundreds of thousands of scrolls and stuff that we'll never, never know anything about. so during the Renaissance, stuff was happening. So people are, like, coming out of the european dark ages, coming out of these plague filled times. And people, are trying to revive things where there's new painting. And I also read something a long time ago that maybe painting got really advanced during this time because people, invented glasses. You know, people could, like, see things for the first time better. You know, all sorts of stuff. Like, things were improving in. In one way, but then people were also, like, around Italy, finding ancient shit, like, everywhere. Like, you could find a crazy ahead, you know, like a brat, like a, marble head. And they were sometimes just, like, crush them up and use them in building material because there were so many of them, and they were just, like, around and, like, there's a story that also probably isn't true, but like, that was a farmer outside of Florence who found a statue and he had Michelangelo come over and he's like, what is this? And Michelangelo was like, oh, that's a laocuan. And you can see the laocoon in. I think it's in Florence still, which is like, an ancient story of a man and his children and there's a snake or something, but it's very beautiful and you can see it. They found.
>> Farz: Is it a painting?
>> Taylor: No, it's a statue. Good question. Sorry. It's a big marble statue.
>> Farz: Okay. I don't know what a legit one is.
>> Taylor: That seems to good to be true, but here we are. It's a big, beautiful statue. so people are just finding stuff. So they're kind of discovering it and being like, oh, who are the people that did this? But a lot of the writing, was missing. And one thing that's kind of cool is the only place where there are ancient scrolls that were found that are potentially decipherable was from herculaneum. Do you remember Herculaneum?
>> Farz: That was the, It was a hippodrome.
>> Taylor: No, Herculaneum is the town next to the other one. So not Pompeii, but the other one's herculaneum. And in Herculaneum they found a villa. It's, called the villa of the papyri. It had over 1800 scrolls in it. And they found it because I think we talked about this. We talked a little bit about, about Pompeii. But like, when they first got there to do the archaeological dig because it was kind of a smash and grab, you know, like they didn't really know what they were doing. And then in herculaneum they found this thing that looked like a log. Like, oh, it's like a burnt log. And then they like, picked it up and like dropped it and like, scrolls fell out. And so it wasn't a log, it was like a case to like hold scrolls. And the scrolls weren't like, nicely, they weren't like, you couldn't open them and read them, they were burned, but they were like preserved differently. So the first, I don't know, 100, they're like, let's try to open them. And they like, dissolved into ash, you know, didn't work. But then later, they started to invent some machine, like during the 18 hundreds to like, look at it better. And now they can look at it. some of them that are still going through them now. They can do it with, like, you know, computers and cameras and images, x rays. Yeah, yeah. But so they're finding things. That's really. When, that's really all we have is, like, the idea of what a home library might have looked like. We have that library for her, Gillenium, which is cool. yeah, so, but also shows.
>> Farz: That, like, you don't know what's significant in the moment. You know, it's all about, like, I guess just like, trying something and then at some point maybe it'll be important or maybe not. I don't know. But this, I know what they were scavenging for. We only know it's important now because a thousand years passed.
>> Taylor: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. and then also, like, I don't know if you might, if you might have seen it and been like, oh, this is. I don't care about this, you know, and just like, let it go. And you're like, shit, that was something pretty cool. And could told us something about, like, how much of history has been destroyed. Most of it, you know?
>> Farz: Yeah, of course.
>> Taylor: And I.
Taylor: I think we could invent the printing press
So one thing that I think just to kind of throw this in here, you know how we talked about how if we went back into time, we, like, couldn't reinvent the telephone.
>> Farz: Taylor. We couldn't reinvent, like, shoelaces.
>> Taylor: No. You know what I think? I think we could invent the printing press.
>> Farz: You think?
>> Taylor: Yeah. Or at least like, stamps, like letters. We could, we could, we could do that, you know, like, for like one page.
>> Farz: And then we give up because you're like, what are we doing? There's like, one.
>> Taylor: It would set a spark and get people excited about it. Like, I think we could do it. I think that that is where we could be, like, hey, guys, you don't have to copy these over and over again by hand. Like, we have a really good idea. Look at these stamps.
>> Farz: I mean, you're right. Out of anything that we probably wouldn't quit, that one feels pretty easy to do one time just to do it.
>> Taylor: Yeah, I think we could do it. So, but obviously, like, once that is invented, it's going to increase the way that books are made and that's going to obviously change the world. But, before that, it's all this. It's a lot of copying. so they're copying them in monasteries because monks have to read and they're not like, reading the Bible really. I think it's kind of like a, a thing that, like, a little bit of, like, penance because it sucks because they have to, like, read these ancient texts and punishment. Yeah. Like, because there's a little bit about, like, self flagellation and, like, being, a monk and being, like, really, really Catholic Christian in these, in these times. Like, there's, you know, a lot of rolling around in brambles and, like, you know, whipping yourself and all those things. And so these monks would go and sit in a room called a scriptorium for, all day. So from dusk till dawn, dawn to dusk, whatever, and they would not be able to, like, read and comprehend and discuss. They just had to copy. So it was like a one line at a time. You literally had a piece of paper that would go over it and you copy one line at a time. And there were in the book the swerve, they were saying there's, like, some ones that were found wherever in the margin someone wrote, like, God, I've been doing this all day. I need a drink, you know? Cause it's actually.
>> Farz: That's funny, though. I bet they actually did absorb a lot of it because when I was in school, the only way I would ever absorb information was I would hand write everything. Cause I would take notes in the moment, excited to take notes, really fast typing. And then when I want to, like, study it, I have to, like, read the notes, distill it down, and then be like, this is the part of that I need to memorize. And then I, like, write it down.
>> Taylor: Nice.
>> Farz: Yeah.
>> Taylor: I did a lot of writing in notebooks in college. Well, I was poor. I didn't have a laptop, so, you know.
>> Farz: Right.
>> Taylor: but, yes. So this is. They were also writing on vellum. This is the skin part. I think you said that before. So vellum is the calf skin. The best. The best of it comes from stillborn calves, which is gross. So it's called uterine vellum, which is, like, from. From a cow that's, like, not been born. And they might get vellum and it would, like, still be hairy, you know, so they have to, like, clean it.
>> Farz: Reminds me of, like, how insane certain discoveries are, you know?
>> Taylor: Yeah. Yeah.
>> Farz: Like, the first person that ate honey was like, why did you think to open this screaming? Whose thought was it that it needs to be a stillborn calf?
>> Taylor: What? I know. You know what I'm going to do? I'm going to make a book out of this dead guy.
>> Farz: So weird.
>> Taylor: Yeah. So, sometimes it'd be so. Sometimes it'd be hairy and they'd have to do more. And if you messed up. You had to take a piece of rock, essentially, and kind of shave off where you messed up and then put clay, over it and then right over it. Just a huge pain in the ass.
>> Farz: Yeah. Sounds like a nightmare.
>> Taylor: Sounds weird. And sometimes they would, scrape off other stuff. So they would just keep writing and writing, but they ran out of vellum. They would just go back, erase and do it again. So there is stuff that has been lost because of that as well. So that's what's happening, in these monasteries across Europe. So they are copying a lot of ancient texts, not really reading them. Maybe they are, I don't know. And that's where they might be.
The Renaissance focused on studying antiquity and then focusing on the humanities
so back to Poggio. He is a humanist, which is, like an intellectual movement, again, the Renaissance, like studying antiquity, studying ancient Greece and Rome, and then focusing on the humanities. So that's where that comes from. The humanities are like literature, history, ethics, rhetoric, rather than just like studying theology, you know, it's like studying, So they, wanted to read original texts and original languages, to do, like, literary criticism for the first time. And they need to do that. They needed to find some of these texts and these plays and these poems that they knew existed but didn't know where they were. They, believed in education and studying classical texts, which is, again, a big shift from thinking about how humanity is just sinful and you're gonna go to hell. And that's all people are thinking about during the plague times and during the dark ages and all this stuff happening. But they're like, let's actually talk about something a little bit more pleasant and read these stories and read these myths and read these things. Most, of them were, you know, scholars and educators and scribes and people who could speak and write in Latin and Greek, besides their own, like, whatever language they were speaking. so what they needed to do was, like, find more ancient stuff. And they were finding it in the monasteries because that's where they were doing it. So Poggio spends some time in England. He goes to Germany. He never bothers to, like, learn those languages. He just kind of, like, goes there and goes to these monasteries. And he needs to kind of walk in and gain their trust and get to know the librarian because probably a really old, really upset monk who has this library. And you have to be like, hey, can I come in here and poke around? But it was also a beer. Yeah, for real. That's actually, they may have done that. In these places, you can't talk, so you have to. You literally can't. Cannot talk. It's not like a library now where, like, please whisper. It's like, you cannot talk. So they, like, do signs to try to, like, figure out what they were, what they were saying. So he'd gain the trust and get in there, and they'd be like, do you have anything special? Do you have anything old? Blah, blah, blah. And, sometimes he would find stuff. So if you knew what to look for, like, what it would look like and all the things. So, like, he knows there is a Cicero, like the ancient writer m they had found before Cicero's forensic orations, which is, like, about, I think, humans. And he found all of them. in 1415, he finds, Vitruvius's de architeur, which is about architecture, which greatly influences, the architecture of the Renaissance. It's also, you know, the ventrue man that Leonardo drew.
>> Farz: Yeah.
>> Taylor: it is from this work that Poggio found that he got the idea to do that because the idea in that was, like, the human body can fit perfectly into a square and a circle. And he was able to, like, prove it. So it's like, analyzing all this stuff that they just, like, were finding. he's.
>> Farz: He doesn't know what he's looking for. M because why would, you know, you. He couldn't know what he's looking for.
>> Taylor: Kind of does.
>> Farz: So he's like, give me the oldest shit you have.
>> Taylor: Yes, yes.
>> Farz: Well, that's when we do it.
>> Taylor: And it's also like, you know, he's like, okay, so I know Cicero is a famous writer of antiquity because I have some of his stuff, and people talk about him all the time, so I know there must be more, you know.
>> Farz: Yeah.
>> Taylor: So you have names of people that you're like, okay, well, I know these 15 people who I know are ancient scholars. And of those 15, maybe they'll find something that two of them made, you know, but. And it's not the original at all. It's like a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy, you know, but they can still find it. the thing that he found that is in the swerve, the book that I read. So the swerve is about something that happens that just moves things a little bit but makes a huge difference. he found Lucretius on the nature of things, which is a poem. Poem is, I think, objective because it is a book, and I bought it, and it's 200 pages. And, I'm probably not gonna read it, but I think I could open it and find fun things in it. It's a little bit of an atheist, book because he talks about how everything exists in the world. And, I mean, this is written in, like, between 99 BC and 55 BC. So in, you know, before, you know, in BC times. And he's talking about how everything is, made up of a small particle called an atom that is so small that it cannot be, cannot be divided. And if everything is an atom, which is everything, then, like, life is, you know, meaningless in a way that, like, you can pursue pleasure rather than making your life miserable. Does that make sense?
>> Farz: Nobody thought this was weird, that this guy knew what an Adam was?
>> Taylor: Well, yeah, he wasn't the first one. There were people who. There was another guy who kind of came up with it. But the idea, it's like this and epicurious. So epicurean philosophy, which is like, there is no afterlife. Our souls are just, like, around our bodies. There's not like, a bunch of souls hanging out there waiting for things. And also, like, why would there be gods? And why would they care about us? That's dumb. you know, like, why would they do that? That makes absolutely no sense. And it's preposterous to think that they would just, like, invent us to, like, be annoying and, like, be mad at us the whole time. So it's a lot, you know what I mean?
>> Farz: Well, I, get it now because I realized that these were all books that were lost, so nobody actually saw them in the moment. So they couldn't kill you for saying this.
>> Taylor: Well, I mean, they were talking about that then. I mean, they lost to antiquity, not, like, to the time that Lucretius lived. But there were, like, different schools of thought, you know?
Taylor: Yeah, it's interesting idea. It sounds like a really cool, adventurous life
and so, I mean, it also then, like, comes up against, like, monotheism and all of that starts to, like, you know, get in the way and then, you know, other things happen and then it gets lost. But, like, it's a really, it's an interesting idea. Like, if you just kind of literally flipping through it right now, but there's stuff that's like, you know, like, we're all part of something that's connected. Like, the world is around, we're in the middle of something. it's other things that are happening. A lot of it is like, don't worry about death because it's going to happen. So, like, calm down. Oh, I just opened a page and it says, but centaurs never existed. Yep.
>> Farz: Shattering greens everywhere.
>> Taylor: I love that. It's, it's, you know, seems super fun. So Lucretius himself, you know, lived to be, like, in his forties, so. But you could see that, like, that, you know, it was an important thing and a really important thing that, Poggio found. He found it in Fulda, which is in Germany, in a monastery there. so that's super exciting. and it was a big deal. Like, a lot of it was, like, really, really important to the renaissance in itself. so that's what we know about, about Poggio brecciolini, the stuff that he found. It sounds like a really cool, adventurous life. And I'm sure, like, I'm sure being in Vatican during that time was like a wild ride, too, because I've seen. Did you watch that pope show with, like, Jeffrey Rush? No.
>> Farz: Someone I know who you're talking about.
>> Taylor: It's, you know, it's a wild, it's a wild, a wild place to be. but he retired from working for the pope in 1453. He went back to Florence, and he died October 30, 1459. He was in his seventies, when he died, which was very old, for, for that time. And people were, like, pleased because he was kind of getting annoying. But, I think it's because he was just, like, a very learned guy, and it was a very wild time. And I want to. I don't know, I feel like I took so many renaissance art classes, but, I'm just kind of connecting the dots of, like, history here with you.
>> Farz: Taylor. Is this not like a dream? What if I were to tell you, hey, listen, you can be paid to fly around the world to come up with, like, to find cool pieces of art and books and God, how cool would that be?
>> Taylor: I, like, felt like I was an adventurer. When I was in the national Gallery last week, I was like, I love it. Look at all these paintings. I was like, I know this painting. And I was just like, it was so fun. I would love to do that.
>> Farz: This is not related at all, but it reminded me of the omen and the one part of the movie, the omen, like, the newer one that I just absolutely loved was when that ambassador just quits being an ambassador and he flies, like, italy to find out, like, where this kid was born, and, and then they lead him to a church. And the church he digs up, like, the mother, which was like bones of.
>> Taylor: A coyote, or it was a jackal. Yeah.
>> Farz: And I was like, dude, how did you, how did you get, like, two months off work to go do this for fucking real.
>> Taylor: We need to do some DaVinci code shit, and we need to be sponsored to be able to do that. Because also, another thing that kind of mentioned is the only way that you could write books for most of history was if you were sponsored by someone. It wasn't like a publishing company that you had to be sponsored. so, yeah, we need a benefactor so that we can travel around buying a cool shit and then tell you about it.
>> Farz: Yeah, I'll wear my little hat and go to, like, Topeka, Kansas, and find out what the worst murder in history was there and interview the sheriff, the coroner, and then Taylor will go to Florence and dig up the corpse of a jackal.
>> Taylor: I will lose my mind when I dig up a jackal. So that will be fun. and I will dress like, the woman in the mummy. Like Rachel Weiss and the mum. That will be my. That will be my look.
>> Farz: Did she have billowy pants? Was she always wearing that, like, white dress?
>> Taylor: She look like a white shirt and billowy pants?
>> Farz: Okay, yeah, later on she had the white dress.
>> Taylor: Yeah.
>> Farz: Right.
>> Taylor: so, good.
>> Farz: Well, listen, benefactors, if you want to benefact us, we will. We'll take it.
>> Taylor: We're available for benefactoring. Whatever.
>> Farz: That was fun. That was funny. It made my little mind run amok. M thinking of all the cool things to do. little archaeology digs and stuff like that.
>> Taylor: Yeah, that'd be really fun.
What is the latest news from your brother? Um. Um, my sister in law is in surgery
>> Farz: What is the latest news from your brother?
>> Taylor: my sister in law is in surgery, but they said that the doctor came and talked to him and said that she will be okay. the guy who hit them was drunk. Of course. yeah.
>> Farz: Geez, what a nightmare.
>> Taylor: Fucking what a nightmare in the middle of the day.
>> Farz: M.
>> Taylor: yeah, so I'll keep you posted on that, but thank you for asking.
>> Farz: Yeah, they're in.
>> Taylor: Yeah, they're in Washington state, so I can't, like, do anything, you know?
>> Farz: Yeah. Yeah. Also, like, now is probably just like, a. There's enough sensory overload.
>> Taylor: Mm M. Yeah.
>> Farz: cool.
We got an email from someone who listened to our Phil Hartman episode
Is there anything else you want to read down? Do we have any more listener listener mail?
>> Taylor: There is. I know that you saw this, and I want to talk about it. So we got an email in our Facebook group from someone who listened to our Phil Hartman episode, which. And she wrote a great episode on Phil Hartman. she gave us some other information. In the late sixties, he was a roadie. He was a surfer. A surfer, a sailor, a scuba diver, a snorkeler. He flew his own plane. He had motorcycles, sports cars, and Boston, wheelers, which is a type of boat. so just nice stuff about Phil Hartman and how, his wife was, unfortunately, really paranoid and all the things. she also mentions that, she listened to the podcast fly, on the wall, and they debunked the thing that I had said about Chris Farley being really self conscious and hating his body. So that's good. I'm glad that, like, he was happy because he's so delightful. I'm sad that he's, you know what I mean? so that was really nice. And then also, so this person who wrote in their name was Jessica. And then I went to their Facebook profile, like, oh, who's this? And their Facebook profile is, like, just pictures of Phil Hartman. They're, like, a Phil Hartman diehard fan. So I'm very, very honored that she enjoyed her episode.
>> Farz: That is so cool. So what was her name?
>> Taylor: Jessica.
>> Farz: Thank you, Jessica.
>> Taylor: Yeah, thank you, Jessica. and then I also have, Juan's mother, Lily, listens to every episode, and she really enjoyed your wine about the south american serial killers. She said it was really fun. So thank you, Lily.
>> Farz: Yeah, thank you, Lily. There's plenty more, trust me.
>> Taylor: She said Farsville did a great job. That's nice.
>> Farz: did. I can't remember now. Did I do Phil Hartman or did you.
>> Taylor: You did. You did. Okay. yeah, yeah.
>> Farz: Jessica, if you have, like, if you're. That's one thing that's kind of cool is, like, if anybody's, like, a super fan of something, can you tell us? Because the more I learn about stuff, the more I'm like, oh, there's always something interesting if you dig deep enough into a topic. so that's. That was.
>> Taylor: We just need the time.
Taylor: I'm curious what people think about Eric Larson's books
And then also, I guess one more thing is I was, going to do fort Sumter in the beginning of the civil war, and I read the demon of unrest by, what's his face, Eric Larson. And, that was a suggestion from, Angela, another listener. And I'd like to hear from people who have read a lot of Eric Larson books and which ones are your favorite? Because some of them are, like, obviously, like, the devil in the white city is so good, you don't know what to do. But then, like, the one Isaac storm, I couldn't even start. It wasn't very good. So I'm just curious what people think. I couldn't get into it.
>> Farz: Yeah. What was Isaac's storm about?
>> Taylor: It's about like the. There's like, a big hurricane in, like, New Orleans area in, like, the. I think, late 18 hundreds or something, and a bunch of people died of. So there's that one thunderstruck. I think that one was, I want to talk about that one eventually. That was a good story. And the garden of beasts is the one about, the american ambassador to Berlin during, Hitler at the beginning of Nazism. That one was. Okay. and then the Lusitania one, I liked the last crossing. Lusitania. I think I've read all of them. splendid. In the vial, that was good. That was Churchill. and a lot about the bombings in London and how people were, like, just live their lives, you know?
>> Farz: Yeah.
>> Taylor: Which is, like, interesting, inspiring. So, I don't know, I'm like, The demon of unrest was good. I can't figure out exactly how I want to talk about it yet. but I did listen. I listened to it, and the person who read it did change their voice when they were doing Lincoln. And Lincoln supposedly has this, like, kind of high voice, which was kind of delightful to listen to.
>> Taylor: Oh, and I'm so sorry, everyone who is all the way back here. But then I was thinking that you're wrong about going back in time and not telling Lincoln. You have to tell him, because he was going to, like, go on vacation. He'd never been anywhere. He'd only been to, like, Illinois and a little bit of Missouri as a lawyer. He took the train to DC. He went through Baltimore, had to, like, pretend to be someone else, sneak into DC, which he, like, regretted doing because people were already trying to kill him and he was going to, like, go to California.
>> Farz: I mean, people write, for him it would have been, but we don't know what the world would look like now. What if Hitler wins world? What if Hitler wins world War two? If he doesn't, if nobody kills Lincoln.
>> Taylor: Don't see that happening. I just think we'd have a good, nice statue of him in La Jolla. Actually.
>> Farz: Yeah, probably.
>> Taylor: This is Lincoln wearing flip flops in La Jolla. He had a great fucking time. Aren't you happy for him? He deserved it.
>> Farz: Here's Lincoln in his board shorts.
>> Taylor: So, I don't know.
>> Farz: Well, write to us if you would or would not tell him.
>> Taylor: Yeah, please let us know. And why. I'd love to hear details.
>> Farz: Sweet.
>> Taylor: well, thank you.
>> Farz: Awesome. Well, thank you for sharing that. And, yeah, again, doonafilpod.com write to us and find us on all the socials. Thank you for sharing, Taylor. Anything to sign us off with.
>> Taylor: That's it. Thanks, friends. Please tell people, put posts on Apple podcasts and all of that to help more people know about us. That'd be awesome.
>> Farz: Awesome. Thanks, everyone. Bye, Taylor.