Let's talk about one of the worst ways to die... there are chances you've seen this graphic of how John Jones was stuck in Nutty Putty Cave... but did you know he's still there? A young father with another on the way, John made a wrong turn in Utah's Nutty Putty Cave and ended up head down in a crevice that was impossible to get him out of. For over 24 hours rescuers tried to get him out in vain, in the end John's body is forever entombed in the cave. Listen to this one somewhere with a lot of space so you can move your arms!
Let's talk about one of the worst ways to die... there are chances you've seen this graphic of how John Jones was stuck in Nutty Putty Cave... but did you know he's still there? A young father with another on the way, John made a wrong turn in Utah's Nutty Putty Cave and ended up head down in a crevice that was impossible to get him out of. For over 24 hours rescuers tried to get him out in vain, in the end John's body is forever entombed in the cave.
Listen to this one somewhere with a lot of space so you can move your arms!
Hi Friends! Our transcripts aren't perfect, but I wanted to make sure you had something - if you'd like an edited transcript, I'd be happy to prioritize one for you - please email doomedtofailpod@gmail.com - Thanks! - Taylor
Taylor: I am just a happy, chipper person
>> Taylor: In the matter of the people of state of California versus Orenthal James Simpson, case number ba zero nine six.
>> Farz: And so, my fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you. And we're back. Taylor. Taylor, you're chipper as ever. I am just a happy, chipper person.
>> Taylor: No, you know me. yeah, yeah. I'm m like, what do I have to tell you that I haven't just told you in the past few minutes?
>> Farz: There's nothing, there's nothing. it's like an old married couple being like, we just ran out of things to talk about.
>> Taylor: I don't know. I just talked to you for a second. Are you still here?
>> Farz: no, no. That's good. That's good.
Welcome to Doom to fail. We are the podcast that brings you notorious failures and disasters
So why don't you do this? Why don't you go ahead and introduce us? I have a really interesting story today.
>> Taylor: Yay. cool, I'm excited. welcome to Doom to fail. We are the podcast that brings you, twice weekly, history's most notorious failures and greatest disasters. I am Taylor, joined by Fars, and Fars has something exciting to share with us today.
>> Farz: Yeah, it's a really fun story. No, it's not fun. It's a horrible story. It's a really good doom to fail story, though. Like, it actually hits on all cylinders for what the premise of the show is supposed to be. and it's also terrifying. And really the starting point for even looking at this was just like, thinking about the worst possible ways of, like, dying. Like, one of the worst conceivable ways. And. And I stumbled on a story and, I, think it might have to be in the top five worst ways I've ever heard anybody dying. So that's what we're going to talk about today.
>> Taylor: Cool. So for us, not for them.
>> Farz: Yeah, yeah. Not for. Not for this poor guy whose name is John Edward Jones. and it has to do with his ultimate demise and fate in a cave in the caving systems of Utah.
Nutty Putty Cave is Utah's most popular cave attraction
So, so let's get into what this cave actually is. So, as a starting point, this cave in Utah, it's called Nutty Putty Cave. It was discovered in 1960 by a guy named Dale Green.
>> Taylor: And would it be funny if his name was. His name was Del Nutty Putty.
>> Farz: So it is a stupid name, but the reason it's a stupid name is because the texture of what's inside of it is this, like, clay stuff that's like silly putty. And originally he was actually gonna call it silly putty. Then he thought that that's too stupid. And so he just went with nutty putty.
>> Taylor: Still nutty putty.
>> Farz: so because of the way the cave was formed and again, kind of like that texture I mentioned earlier, it's like a super craggy rocky nightmare on the inside of it. And it also, given the fact that it's full of loose mud, it's like kind of like a fun place to go. there's a lot of slides built into it also it's only 1400ft long so you can kind of explore it in like a chill Sunday basically. So as a result of that, this became Utah's most popular cave attraction. Some reports said in the initial phases when it was first discovered it was attracting 25,000 visitors a year. Eventually they cut down to like 5000 or so visitors a year. But in 2004, a group of Boy scouts went into the cave and one of them, this 13 year old boy, he got stuck in a part of the cave known as the birth canal. So he ended up needing professional. Yeah, he ended up needing professional rescuing, which which did occur. But it also results in the cave being closed to the public out of safety concerns. So due to this 2004. So due to public demand, the state agency that owns and is responsible for the cave, they decided to reopen it on May 18 of 2009. They said they took safety precautions and that's why they're going to reopen it. But really it just sounds mostly that people were just fucking pissed off that this thing was closed and like fine, we'll open the cave. We know it's the most popular cave in the city or the state. All they did was they did like permits. It was like how's the permit gonna save you? Like just supply. You just paid the $17 for the permit. Anyways.
Taylor: I think we should start a podcast called underground with Taylor
So let's get into the layout of nutty putty cave. So the main entrance to the cave is just a hole in the ground and it's a 15ft shaft that you climb down to get to the floor of the cave. Upon entering the cave you would run into what's called the big slide which is literally a 45 foot long slide section that you can literally slide down.
>> Taylor: It's like nature is trying really hard to tell you not to do that.
>> Farz: What? The 15 foot drop that would break your legs if you fell.
>> Taylor: Like nature's like don't come in here. I'm going to make it really hard and scary. So like don't do it. People do it.
>> Farz: Anyway, Taylor, I was googling caverns and caves that you can explore in Texas. And I think I might have to do this.
>> Taylor: that's cool. I think that we should start a new podcast called underground with Taylor of ours. And I'll go underground in cities, and you go underground in caves and then see who dies first.
>> Farz: You know what's funny is you bring that up, because I was researching this cave that's in like 20 minutes from where I'm at right now, and I was researching, it's like a really popular attraction and people go there all the time. But it had mentioned that parts of the cave just open because sinkholes form underneath us. How do you know it's not going to happen when you're on top of it? Anyways, okay, so you get this big slide section, and it's literally a slide. And, after exploring that is where most people who are just recreational, touristy kind of people, they'll call it quits and hat out of the cave. If you want to keep going, you can go down a section that I mentioned earlier, the birth canal. So birth canal once, and that's it, never again. So this was a super tight passage that was, like, very claustrophobia inducing, and it was mostly reserved for more experienced cavers. That's the premise here.
John Edward Jones was trapped upside down in cave in 2009
So our main person for this event, again, this guy named John Edward Jones, he was an adventurous guy. He'd been caving a lot. He hadn't actually been to nutty putty before, but his family's been, been there and done that. So he, he's of the class of individuals who's an adventure seeker, I would call him. He was 26 years old, in 2009, and a medical student who was married to a woman named Emily, who was pregnant. And he had also just had his first daughter, Lizzie. So, yeah, he went to school in Virginia, but his family lived in Provo, Utah, and that's why they were there, because this all was going down on November 24. So they were there for Thanksgiving. They were there to announce to his parents that they were pregnant again. She was only two months pregnant, and so that was the entire point. So he and a group of friends, including his brother, they decide they want to go explore nutty putty. And despite not having personal experience with nutty putty, other people in his group had been there before, and so he felt like he could take it. Like I said, he was an adventurous guy, and he decided that he wanted to go through that challenging section called the Birth canal. So this part of the cave tines down to about 18 inches and it pins the person's arm to their sides and makes it like a very, very slow route where you kind of are exhaling air out of your chest so that you can keep going deeper, which is like a bad sign. A bad sign. So John starts going down the birth canal head first with his arms pinned to his side. And this is a relatively big dude. He's over 6ft tall, he's 200 pounds. And so this was a pretty tight squeeze for him. He gets to a point where he realizes he can't actually go any further. It was just too tight. And it's at this point he realizes that he also can't go backwards anymore. He was stuck nearly completely upside down, vertical in a pocket that was ten inches wide and 18 inches high. What? This was the scene as was described by people who later would find him say it looked like he was swallowed by the rock. So here's the problem. John wasn't in the birth canal. John was in a section of the cave nobody went to. It was known as Ed's push. It had been explored by this guy in, in 2000 named Ed Martineau. Martineau who was a professional cavere. It was essentially a no go zone. He took the wrong turn. He was trying to get to the birth canal and he went one step further and went down this section that was largely unexplored. So John's brother Josh, who was with him, discovered him in this upside down position and he tried to push him out. He like put his feet up again. He went in feet first instead of head first. And so he was trying to use his feet to kind of like push his foot up a little bit and then maybe like leg press him up. He moves him a little bit wasn't enough. He talked to his brother, trying to calm him down and then he makes a, ah, makes a break for it and he calls rescue services. And around 100 people assemble an hour and a half after they had first entered the cave to try and rescue John. So initially the rescue was let's just try and pull him out. That obviously was not working. Then they decided, hey, why don't we try and destroy the rocks around him with explosives or with chipping, chipping through. And then it was determined that doing that was likely to cause potentially the cave collapsing or otherwise killing John even more, more quickly. They decided that they're going to start using a rope and pulley system to, to go through, to tie rope pulley system from outside all the way to John to try and pull him out that way. So this was a problem given how tight the passageway was. And it was said that to construct the pulley system itself took about an hour for each piece of equipment to m move from the top to where it had to be a, fix for John to be able to kind of get wenched out.
>> Taylor: So how long does it take to get there? Like, how far in is hedgest?
>> Farz: He was, it was, I think he was 190ft from the entrance, something like that.
>> Taylor: Okay.
>> Farz: Yeah, yeah. It wasn't far, but you just couldn't do anything, I mean, if you saw. So one picture, I saw one of the rescuers, John's not in it, but one of the rescuers took a picture and he has his hand in front of him like this. Like if anybody like, is stretching like their fingers from side to side and he's touching the ceiling and the floor of the cave at the same time. So there's no maneuverability is a problem.
>> Taylor: Right.
>> Farz: Only six of the over 100 people were actually able to get to John. with the most consequential, consequential one being a woman named Susie Mottola, who was pretty small. She was five foot three, so she was the one who could easily, more easily get to him. she was with the sheriff's search and rescue team and basically she was there to assess his situation and really to offer emotional support. This guy was like distress, like in really, really bad distress, as you can imagine.
>> Taylor: Yeah, yeah.
>> Farz: It was quickly determined that, like I said, chipping away the rocks, around John wasn't, wasn't going to be an option either because there just wasn't that much time. So by the time they'd finished putting together this rope and pulley system, he was down there for around 20 ish hours or so. And at this point, it was excruciatingly painful. Like all the blood in his head, all the blood in his body.
>> Taylor: Right.
>> Farz: His legs had no blood in it. And I listened to this one doctor talking about, which was, your body's just not built to live like that. It can't live in that position. so what they ended up doing was they ended up constructing, this police system. And they affixed the rope to John's leg to kind of try and hoist him out. They were able to get him up a little bit and it was enough where they kind of like winch about up a little bit. It was enough for them to be able to kind of give him some water. They could, you know, attach communication devices to him so that he could talk to people. Better than being with his face down in the rocks. they couldn't go much further because his feet were hitting the ceiling. The ceiling above him was only twelve inches above where his feet were. And so while they were assessing what to do, the, the pulley system ripped and it dropped John back down. The break actually also shattered the jaw of a rescuer who was standing next to it. and it also, almost severed his tongue. To make matters worse for John, when they dropped him back in, they didn't drop him back in, the pulley broke. But when, when he was dropped back in, he landed further and at this point he's fully on his head. So if you look at pictures of him originally he is, you can't see pictures of it's schematics. You can't see an actual picture of him. Thank God.
>> Taylor: I.
>> Farz: But, he's actually, his head's not on the rock, it's his chest that's being compressed. His shoulders and his chest. What's wedged in there. But this time he fell further in and his head was on the rock as well.
>> Taylor: Oh God.
Ed Caveman died 27 hours after getting stuck on November 26
>> Farz: So by this point, things are getting more and more desperate. Like I said, the doctor that was consulted at the scene said that you could reasonably expect a human being to stay alive for 8 hours in this position. And we're like around hour 20 or so.
>> Taylor: Wow.
>> Farz: the only other option they could think of was just break his legs. Really just break his legs and then rope him out that way or pull him out that way. And they determined that if we did that, he's going to die anyways. He's going to die of shock and horrible agony because his body's not doing good. Like if they thought to do that originally, then it could have worked because his body wasn't so weak that he couldn't handle the breaking of the legs. But at this point they're like, if we do this, he's gonna go into shock and kill him.
>> Taylor: Oh my God.
>> Farz: And then it was determined, really. Like they decided like, look, rescuing him is impossible. Like, it's literally impossible. There's nothing that can be done. At this point, all they could really do was talk to him to kind of alleviate his despair. they had his family there like on the outside of the cave talking to him through like a radio. And his last words were to his wife. He said, I love you. And then he died 27 hours after getting stuck on November 26, which was Thanksgiving day.
>> Taylor: Oh, my God.
>> Farz: So he was pronounced dead only because somebody went in there and they checked his feet for a pulse, which I guess you can do, and it was like, yeah, he died. They assumed, which is a fair assumption, that he died of some. Some level of respiratory distressing, cardiac arrest because of how hard his heart was working. officials concluded that rescue would be to take his body out of there. would just be way too dangerous. Like, you're more likely to lose another person down there. We'd have to basically shred his body up just to get him out anyway. So why even bother doing this? We're just going to deliver a pile of bones to his family. They decided the best way to deal with this was basically to blow a rock formation in this part called Ed's push and just bury his body in the rubble, which is what they did. And then they poured concrete in the opening so that nobody can ever go inside ever again. Isn't that scary?
>> Taylor: Yes. He's just like, his body's just in there, encased in concrete.
>> Farz: Yeah.
>> Taylor: Oh, my God.
>> Farz: Is that scary? Like, just.
>> Taylor: That's so scary.
Are any of these pictures real of John Edwards Jones? I'm googling
What are these pictures? I'm googling. What is real? Are any of these pictures real? Like, the picture of him, like, smiling, as is him in another part of the cave? So the picture of his boots sticking out, is that real?
>> Farz: I haven't seen that. John Edwards Jones, let's see what you're getting. no, wait. Maybe that is real. Could that be real?
>> Taylor: I don't know.
>> Farz: I didn't think they would publish real pictures of that.
>> Taylor: Well, there's, like, a couple different ones with, like, different feet, so who knows? I mean, they published a picture of the dead guy up on Mount Everest all the time, you know?
>> Farz: Yeah, that's true. That's true. But I also know that they, they ripped off his jeans, in the middle of this process or whatever pants he was wearing, because they thought at one point, they thought they would just douse him in, like, oil, like vegetable oil, and maybe get him out that way. And so they, they undressed his top part. They could access, so any pictures of his legs, if it. If those are. Must have been early on. So. So what ended up happening, was. So his wife, Emily Jones, she, like I said, she was two months pregnant when this all went down. She ended up, giving birth to their child. Seven months later, she gave an interview, and, it was about five years after this incident happened where she'd mentioned that she'd resolved to never remarrying eventually, her brother introduced her to a friend of his name, Donovan Sanchez. They would marry four years. after John's death, they would end up getting another, they would end up having another child together. and they, I mean, I looked them up on Facebook. Like, they're on Facebook and they like, look like the, like the sweetest. The guy is a teacher for Teach for America and she like, runs a photography company and like, illustrates children's books. It's like they're very Mormon in like, the sweetest way. and, oh, yeah, I thought this was interesting. Donovan, when he asked when he was going to ask Emily to marry him, asked Emily's parents and John's parents for their permission.
>> Taylor: So that's sweet.
>> Farz: Yeah. What a horrible, horrible, excruciatingly, unbelievably painful way to talk.
>> Taylor: I can't believe he even got in there. Like, what was he thinking? I don't want to blame the victim here, but, like, the fuck are you doing?
>> Farz: So what happens when you go down the birth canal is there's a spot where you can eventually turn around. And that's what most people do. They go down to a certain section and then if they wanted to, they go further towards, what I think it's called the aorta. There's like another tight thing after the birth canal. But before you get to that section, it opens up. So you can actually turn around and go back up the way you came and then get up to the big slide. They assume that's what he thought he was doing because he said he's going down the birth canal. And then he, he kind of, he thought that that section where he was going into Ed's push washing, the last push before he was able to kind of turn around. Yeah. Bad, bad. Guess I hate it. Yeah. There's a movie they made about this. I actually only learned about this because I went to his widow's, Facebook page and she had posted this movie. I think it's called the last descent.
>> Taylor: Yeah, I see it. I'm looking at it.
>> Farz: It's like a Mormon Christian movie. And like, if you read the plot, it, part of it is a little bit spooky because part of it is because so many times he, like, blackout, there's big chunks where he was blacked out, by the way. Like, he was like, he fade in and out of consciousness. Then he'd come to and like, be aware of what's going on. but in the movie, the plot that I read about it was that at one point, he blacks out. He wakes up, and he realized that he's, like, on top of the rock instead of inside of it. And then he, like, turns around, he goes outside, and then he. He realized there's nobody there. And he's like, oh, my God, I died. And he realized he was dead. And he goes back in the cave. I was like, man, that's like a really. I don't know, spooky.
>> Taylor: Definitely haunting the shit out of that cave.
>> Farz: So creepy. There's a body just sitting there, but there's a really cool cave system, near me, and I think I'm gonna go check it out.
>> Taylor: Okay.
>> Farz: It's free, too.
>> Taylor: I'm sure it's free for you to. It's free because someone's died there yet. Then it'll be $17.
>> Farz: Yeah, let's.
Doctor says rescuers should have knocked trapped caveman out first
Let's hope they don't name a part of a, cave after me. I mean, that's the interesting thing is, like, you take out, like, an organ, and you get named after an organ, but you got to die in a cave to get named after the cave.
>> Taylor: Yeah, yeah.
>> Farz: Have you heard this story before?
>> Taylor: I've definitely seen that, like, image before. Like the. Like, the diagram of him. It's like, totally upside down in there. yeah, yeah.
>> Farz: The way his arms were pinned is, I think it was his left arm was on his stomach. Like, he was just pushed into his stomach, and then his other arm was behind him. There's nothing he could.
>> Taylor: Did he have the helmet light or was it dark?
>> Farz: No, he had a helmet light. Yeah. It doesn't really help that much. I mean, you're not.
>> Taylor: I know, but, like, it was just, like, totally dark.
>> Farz: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a terrible story. but, I mean, God, just. I would have just. I was thinking, like, why didn't they just, like, when they first found him, why didn't they just, like, inject him with something? Like, knock him out and then break his legs? And then even if you just shred all his skin coming out of there on the rocks, who gives a shit? Like, at least you're out. And then you can just yell from him.
>> Taylor: I think knocking him out. I mean, as a doctor, I think knocking him out makes sense. because I wikipedia appendixes earlier today, I know a lot. but I feel like that would make him not tense up and easier to squish around.
>> Farz: Yeah, yeah, I think. I think by the time they realized how dire the situation was, we're like, everything we do is going to kill him. It sounds from what I read of the rescuer reports, that they were like, we just knew this wasn't going to happen and he was still alive. So we just tried, but it wasn't. We weren't going to get anywhere with us. Everything we could have done with them. Yeah.
>> Taylor: Good luck to you in your time of need. Yeah.
>> Farz: Gotta make thanksgiving rough going forward.
>> Taylor: I know. For real. Gonna ruin the day. Someone had worked really freaking hard on, like, some appetizers that were never eaten.
>> Farz: And I was wondering that. I was like, if it was me, would I go back to him? Just, like, snack on some ham? Could I, would that be weird?
>> Taylor: I feel like the next day. Could you have a turkey sandwich? Because you have an entire turkey.
>> Farz: Why not?
>> Taylor: I feel like you can, but maybe after, maybe just like, the one, and then later you'd be like, I don't know, celebrate thanksgiving in October.
>> Farz: Yeah. Yeah, but, Yeah, don't do that anyways.
>> Taylor: Don't do that.
>> Farz: Yeah, that's my story.
>> Taylor: Obviously you've seen the descent a bunch.
>> Farz: Oh, God, yeah. Like one of the best horror movies ever.
>> Taylor: the part where she's in that little tight spot, her friend goes, the worst thing that can happen to you has already happened to you. You're gonna. You have to get through this, you know? Like, what is this? Who does this? What is wrong with you people?
>> Farz: Yeah. Yeah. Which is weird. It's like, you don't actually need to make that situation more scary. It's already pretty damn scary.
>> Taylor: Yeah.
But I love those movies. They're so good. The second one's pretty good, too. I never saw the second one. Um.
>> Farz: But I love those movies. I know.
>> Taylor: They're so good. The second one's pretty good, too.
>> Farz: I never saw the second one.
>> Taylor: It's the same woman. She, like, comes back and. Oh, yeah. And it's like, that's good. I think maybe that's here.
>> Farz: Sweet. So, yeah, that's my story. We got. We gave you two short ones today.
>> Farz: but that's fine. Like, maybe y'all will, like, short ones more than. More than full length, size. Whatever.
>> Taylor: Whatever. Let us know.
>> Farz: Whatever.
Taylor: Feet hurt just having to wear shoes, because I just don't
We're tired. All right. We're so tired.
>> Taylor: We went out last night. My feet hurt a dollar dancing. Honestly, like, not even. Like, I have very comfortable dancing shoes. But my feet still hurt. I mean, they're very tall. But, when I'm, like, out of my house for, like, a day, I. Feet hurt just having to wear shoes, like, as a thing, because I just don't wear shoes very often.
>> Farz: Yeah.
>> Taylor: Like, I'm barefoot all the time. And even though we have, like, we have concrete floors, but my husband wears inside shoes with, like, a foot pad and all the things. But I never wear shoes.
>> Farz: No, me neither. I've noticed that, like, my big toe starts, like, the nail starts, like, hurting. Like, it's like, digging into my skin when I wear my hocus.
>> Taylor: I just want to stay home. What is this?
>> Farz: On Taylor? I start to question whether we would have survived if. If Covid didn't happen. We had to actually go to work again.
>> Taylor: I honestly don't know that's such a big question. And that alternate universe is not great.
>> Farz: No.
>> Taylor: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
>> Farz: Sweet.
Chris: There's no clear way to define what actually goes to charity
Do you have anything to read off? All right.
>> Taylor: I do. I have a message from Nadine. You know how you and I were talking about where money goes for different charities?
>> Farz: Yes.
>> Taylor: I'm just going to read this. The whole thing, it's like two paragraphs. She, says, hello. I used to be a professional fundraiser and subsequently spent a lot of time studying philanthropy in general. There's no clear way to define what actually goes to the cause. It sounds good on the surface, but it's essentially meaningless. I'm not sure people are picturing cash being handed directly to poor people or what, but this phrase has no definition. Would, we count the salary of the food bank's cleaning staff as going directly to the cause? The cost of the desk the mental health worker sits at. Nobody knows. It's a garbage measure. It would make more sense to judge organizations by effectiveness, but this is almost impossible to do. Again, no agreed upon measurements. Super complex issues with myriad players. Often the impacts are tough to trace in terms of, causality, especially for advocacy. All of which eventually led me to become disillusioned with the whole shebang. Philanthropy is mostly a shadow government, but without even the accountability of elected leaders, it gives rich people even more power than they already have over what issues to get love, and is usually pretty ineffective. That's why, g to perspective. Take it or leave it.
>> Farz: I love it. Yeah. I also heard this from, this other podcast I listened to where the guy work for, like, the un or something, and he mentioned how annoying it was to the actual people doing the work when, like, celebrities would get involved because they're like. And now we gotta, all this work that we know should get prioritized in a certain way. We have to reshuffle the priority, because now this other issue has the attention because Bono decides that he wants to write a song about it, you know?
>> Taylor: Right. Totally. Like, my sister works at Austin pets alive and the, like post office did a thing where they made a stamp with a dog on it. And they were like, we're gonna announce it in your parking lot. And they were like, okay. They had to do all this stuff. They had to, like, host this huge event. They're like, I don't care about your stamp. I'm not gonna get any money from the stamp. You know, like, everyone knows we love animals. Stop it. But they had to do it, you know?
>> Farz: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let those people do their jobs. And, yeah, thank them. Just thank them. That's enough.
>> Taylor: Yeah.
>> Farz: Sweet.
>> Taylor: yeah, cool. Thank you, Nadine. Thanks, everyone who listens and sends us this stuff. We appreciate it. Doom two fail podmail.com. you can instagram message us, Facebook message us on all the socials at Doom to fail pod on YouTube. You can comment on our videos. All that good stuff.
>> Farz: Perfect. Well said.
>> Taylor: We want to hear from you.
>> Farz: Awesome. and, yeah, I guess that's it. Thanks, Taylor. Thanks, Chris.