In the 1960s, thousands of babies worldwide were born with physical abnormalities, and the culprit was a 'wonder drug' given to mothers who had morning sickness. Pharmaceutical companies promoting the drug Thalidomide didn't do enough testing on pregnant women before marketing their product directly to them (well, legal testing anyway; there was most likely testing in Concentration Camps during WWII). In the US, there were only 17 documented cases thanks to the tireless work of the FDA's Frances Oldham Kelsey, who refused to approve Thalidomide without further documentation. In the UK, Health Minister Enoch Powell took the documentation at face value and left the drug on the shelves even after he knew of the issues. Families were left alone to care for their children until Harold Evans of The Sunday Times fought a moral campaign across Britain to get them their due compensation and ongoing support. Learn more about this dark chapter in Pharmacological history with us this week on Doomed to Fail.
In the 1960s, thousands of babies worldwide were born with physical abnormalities, and the culprit was a 'wonder drug' given to mothers who had morning sickness. Pharmaceutical companies promoting the drug Thalidomide didn't do enough testing on pregnant women before marketing their product directly to them (well, legal testing anyway; there was most likely testing in Concentration Camps during WWII).
In the US, there were only 17 documented cases thanks to the tireless work of the FDA's Frances Oldham Kelsey, who refused to approve Thalidomide without further documentation.
In the UK, Health Minister Enoch Powell took the documentation at face value and left the drug on the shelves even after he knew of the issues. Families were left alone to care for their children until Harold Evans of The Sunday Times fought a moral campaign across Britain to get them their due compensation and ongoing support.
Learn more about this dark chapter in Pharmacological history with us this week on Doomed to Fail.
Sources:
Frances Oldham Kelsey, the Fda, and the Battle Against Thalidomide by Cheryl Krasnick Warshn- https://www.josephbeth.com/book/9780197632543
Attacking the Devil - Harold Evans and The Last Nazi War Crime - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HSlQCR3lGU
“Wonder Drug” draws back the veil on thalidomide’s hidden American victims https://harvardpublichealth.org/policy-practice/thalidomide-the-untold-american-story-in-wonder-drug/
Thalidomide: the story they suppressed - https://www.thetimes.com/article/thalidomide-the-story-they-suppressed-xqpwccdff
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gr%C3%BCnenthal
Hi Friends! Our transcripts aren't perfect, but I wanted to make sure you had something - if you'd like an edited transcript, I'd be happy to prioritize one for you - please email doomedtofailpod@gmail.com - Thanks! - Taylor
Welcome to Doom to fail with the podcast that brings you history's most notorious disasters
>> Taylor: In the matter of the people of state of California versus Orenthal James Simpson, case number ba zero nine six.
>> Farz: And so, my fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for Taylor. Let's see. Let's go ahead and knock out the introduction and then get into why we're releasing late and why I sound like I'm dying.
>> Taylor: hello, everyone. Welcome to Doom to fail with the podcast that brings you history's most notorious disasters and epic failures. Twice a week, every week, I am Taylor, joined by Faris, a day late.
Taylor was traveling through Mexico City airport on Sunday for a layover
>> Farz: Okay, so, Taylor, I went to Playa del Carmen on Friday, and then I was supposed to connect through Mexico City airport on Sunday for layover back to Austin. And have you been to Mexico City airport?
>> Taylor: No.
>> Farz: It is like, the only way I could describe it is, like the movie vivarium if it was made in an airport. Like, you just go in circles. There's no signage. Nobody's helpful. It's. Eventually, we got to our gate, and we got there, like, two, three minutes before the close of boarding, which was 15 minutes before departure. And the guy's like, yeah, we already closed the gate. and then right behind us were, like, five, six other women that come running up, and they're like. Like, the plane's still here. It's still within the 15 minutes window. It's like, no, I already closed it. That means you can't get on. Oh, my God, that sucks. So then we go talk to the airline, and they're like, yeah, there's no options. You can buy another round of tickets. They're about $600 a piece one way. for tomorrow. It's just, like, ludicrous. Ludicrous. Yeah. I've been up since 05:00 this morning. Like, at the gate being like, there's no way I'm, like, leaving this gate. Like, they're not. I'm not.
>> Taylor: Oh, my God.
>> Farz: It was. It was. It was a rough. It's been a rough couple of days. and still ongoing because now our luggage is in Mexico city and we live in there. Yeah.
>> Taylor: that's a disaster. I'm sorry.
>> Farz: So, anyways, that is how my mood is right now. how are you?
>> Taylor: Good. I'm just discombobulated as well. We went to Palm Springs, which is just 45 minutes away this weekend, on Saturday night to visit our friend, and they had, like, a little Airbnb, and we had a really nice dinner, and then floors got a cough, and I, like, I was not able to sleep because it was really hot. And like they. The AC just like, I think the AC like lowered a lot. Like automatically in the middle of the night, you know, so I was like trying to fall asleep and Florence was coughing. And at 05:00 in the morning, Juan was like, we have to leave. We have to get Florence her inhalers at home. so we packed up and left and we just like texted our friend and we're like, we just left the night. And then. So yesterday, just confused, you know, like tired and confused.
>> Farz: Yeah. When you, like, when you're not in your usual routine, it's so. Especially the older you get, you know, like your adaptability to it is just so much more limited.
Let's dive into some stories for this week
But anyways, we're here now. Let's go ahead and dive into some stories for this week. Am I going first?
>> Taylor: No. Can I go first?
>> Farz: Yes, you can go first.
>> Taylor: If like last time you went first and then you shouldn't have. So, like, I did, like, whatever, doesn't matter. Can I go?
>> Farz: You can go.
>> Taylor: I feel ready.
>> Taylor: so I am going to tell you pars another story that can be found in Billy Joel's weed and start the fire that I have been wanting to talk about for a while. I'm going to close a bunch of my computer tabs so that this works. have you heard about the children of the little mind, the little mite? I'm going to say it a bunch of times, so I better get good at it.
>> Farz: No.
>> Taylor: So a thalidomide baby, who you may recognize if you googled it, is a baby that was born in the 1950s, or sixties, usually the early sixties, who has no arms or legs, and some other things potentially could be wrong with it. But mostly it's the people who have just hands out of their arm sockets.
>> Farz: Oh, yeah. Okay. yeah. I didn't know. I mean, it's got to be a condition. I never looked into it, so.
>> Taylor: So it's. Okay. So it's pretty crazy and it's actually not. It's a condition that is caused by a medication that the mother took while she was pregnant. So let me tell you a little bit about it. To research this, I watched a documentary called, attacking the devil, Harold Evans and the last nazi war crime. And I read the book Francis Oldham, the FDA and the battle against thalidomide. So, there's something to tell you about the UK and the US and what happened. Okay, stop reading the Wikipedia page and just let me tell you. so we'll talk about what selenomide was and what it did, what happened in the US when it happened in the UK. so there's a thread here that I think we should talk about at some other time, like the formation of the FDA and the reasons why you have to have prescriptions for things, you know, and things like that. Because, like, 99% of human history, it was just like people in the woods trying not to die, you know, and you would be like, oh, this mushroom can help you. This mushroom kills you.
>> Farz: You know, they need someone to know.
>> Taylor: That, really know that, but there's no regulation around it. It's just like, whatever. Cause it's like in your village or whatever, you're in your town in London where they sell you eel skins and, you know, this tonic. So people, are dying all the time, but then, as we have learned things, it starts to get very chemical heavy. So there's people who can actually make things that help people, that help diseases that do all these things, but they need to be regulated to make sure that they're safe. And there needs to be the right amount of trials and the right amount of data behind things so that you can't just. And also, things need to have a prescription, so you can't just, like, you know, buy 700 OxyContin and then hope for the best, you know?
>> Farz: Right.
>> Taylor: So there are also going to be people who are desperate for help, who want to try experimental drugs and experimental things, that will happen, over and over again. I feel like in one of the stories I told you, there was a doctor who, Oh, gosh, I can't remember who. I think it was in the Henrietta lac story where he had cancer. When he was dying, he wanted them to take out his cancer. And, like, potentially that surgery would have killed him. But he was like, use me as an experiment. You know, there's, like, people who've wanted to do that. But some. Sometimes people have to say no to a certain drug, to say, you know, this can't be on the market, people can't have this.
There's a lot of human testing done by sales reps
Another thing that we're not going to talk about today, but that is a part of the story, is there's, you know, a ton of animal testing in, like, a very terrible way that happened, like, in the beginning of testing, and a lot of human testing in very terrible ways, like testing malaria drugs on prisoners. And, you know, the, Tuskegee trials, where they were. Yeah, where they were doing things with, syphilis and all these terrible things. Not the airmen, but it was in the same area. but they were giving black, ah, men syphilis and not helping them, essentially, to see what different drugs would do. Even after they didn't, it didn't really matter. Like, the testing was over. So there's a lot of that, but it's also a lot of, like, off the books human testing done by sales reps. And I didn't think about what a weird job a pharmaceutical rep is. But you like, try to bribe a doctor to using your medicine.
>> Farz: Yeah, it's crazy.
>> Taylor: It's wild. And it's been like that since like, the forties and fifties. So, I mean, essentially. And they said this in the book about, Francis Kelsey. And it is something that you see now. It's like they come in to talk to your doctor for ten minutes, they give you a bunch of trials of a pill, they bring you snacks and bring you things, give you things like, you know, notepads and pens and all that stuff, and then they leave and they don't really keep track of the trials. At least in the fifties and sixties, they weren't keeping track of the trials. And then, like, then you have, at least in America, you have ads for these drugs, so you could open up a newspaper. There's a ten page ad for this drug that's going to be a miracle drug for you. So you ask your doctor about it, and he's like, I don't know. I met this guy six months ago. He brought me a pack of cigarettes, I guess you should try it, you know, so it's like impossible for them to know everything, but it's just like, this should be more. It should be a little more complicated than that. But it's a weird thing, I think.
>> Farz: I mean, if you've seen any of the movies or series or shows about, like, the OxyContin phrase, like, it was basically just that. It was like, yeah, get people who were really good looking and have them buy stuff for the doctors and show up and take one free vacation. It's kind of. It's kind of insane to.
>> Taylor: It's insane. Do you remember, wasn't it in one of those things where they were like, had like a song about selling OxyContin or something? Yeah, yeah, that's. Yeah, I hate it.
Imagine that world war two has just ended and people are depressed
but imagine that we are on earth and world war two has just ended. So put yourself in that thing. So knowing what we know, talking a little bit about medicine, you're on earth, world War two just ended, and there's some things that are happening. Most people are depressed because we've just gone through a war, especially in Europe. Everything's destroyed. A lot of people are depressed. Lots of people are afraid of nuclear fallout. So we're going to, like, start doing cold war activities. People are start getting. Have a lot of anxiety. And some Nazis have just completed some of the most horrifying human tests of all time, and they're going to, like, slowly start getting out of jail. They're not going to be in jail for that long. Some of them are going to go to South America and never be accountable for their crimes. So they've done things that is, like, just horrifying. We haven't talked about them in detail. I'm sure we will someday, but just terrible things. so thalidomide is a medicine that comes from Germany. It was marketed as an antidepressant and a cure for morning sickness. And sometimes the cures for morning sickness in this time were like, well, if you're passed out, then you're not nauseous.
>> Farz: That does actually work for a lot of things.
>> Taylor: That did cure my sadness that I just slept for seven days. Perfect.
>> Farz: Yeah, that's fine.
>> Taylor: it came from a company called Chemi Grunenthal, which is still a company. It's called Grunenthal. It still, is active in Germany. but chemi Grunenthal became a company because a bunch of Nazis bought jewish companies during the aryanization laws. And we've talked about those before, but essentially, jewish people couldn't own any companies. Nazis and Germans would buy their companies for, like, a very cheap and start to grow a portfolio.
>> Farz: Right.
>> Taylor: so after the war, when they were filing patents for thalidomide, it took them about eight weeks to get the patent through, which is, like, way too fast. If they were actually testing it post war, they were definitely doing testings during world War two in the concentration camps of thylitimide and things that were like it. Like other chemicals and medicines that they were making.
>> Farz: Right.
>> Taylor: in 1938, they started to make pesticides for other reasons, and they saw that, they started to make people convulse, and that's when nerve gas got invented. and you've heard of, like, sarin gas?
>> Farz: I have. I don't know what it does.
>> Taylor: So it's like the nerve agent that just, like, you know, you lose control of your body and like, that is like, you know, chemical warfare. Why? You'd have to, like, wear, have the masks and all that stuff, because, like, then they just shoot you. So they just, like, they come in, they're wearing their masks. You let out the sarin gas. Everybody on the battlefield, you know, is basically convulsing because it's attacking their nerves. And then, you can kill them or they die from the. From the gas. Sarin gas is spelled sarn, and it is spelled that because it's named after the initials of the men who made it. So they took their initials. There's Gerhard Schrader, Otto Ambrose, Gerhard Ritter, and, Hans Jurgen von der Linde. And they took their, S a r I n. Yes. And anyway, they used their initials to make it, which is terrible because it killed a lot of people. Otto Ambrose is, He was in Bergen Belsen, I believe, like one of the camps. Just, like, doing terrible things to people. They called him the devil's chemist. and I'm sure we could talk about things that he did in particular, but he one of the people who started the, the nerve gas. And after the war, he ended up working at Kemet Grunenthal and Dow chemicals. Like, they just wanted scientists, like, to give a shit.
>> Farz: Yeah. We did an episode on Dow Chemical. They killed, like, thousands of Indians because they wouldn't maintain the chemical flame.
>> Taylor: Yeah.
>> Farz: All that industrial stuff feels kind of, like, bribey, scammy, and kind of a little bit crooked.
>> Taylor: Yeah, yeah, it feels gross. so. But because they made the nerve gas that makes you convulse, Hitler wanted an antidote to it. So the opposite of making your nerves convulse is to, like, destimulate your nerves? Technically, yeah. I'm not a doctor, but you know what I mean. I'm making hand gestures. Like I even understand what a nerve is. Okay. so while they were doing that, trying to find anti convulsive things, they invented thalidomide. It stops nerve endings from, like, activating. it also makes you a bit high, which is a bonus to anything, really. Yeah. so, again, there's no way they could have tested it the way that they said that they did when they had. When it went to market in West Germany and in Europe after the war. there was one woman who, in the documentary I watched who said that her brother in law was liberated, liberating Bergen Belsen, and he saw babies with the thalidomide deformities. So I'm sure they used it there, you know? And that's, like, part of the reason they said they did it, also, like, they knew what it would do. And so what are. What are the deformities? What does a thalidomide person look like? And, like, how many are there?
>> Farz: Did you already go over why the people took this stuff?
>> Taylor: I'll tell you. I'll tell you.
>> Farz: Okay.
>> Taylor: Yeah. I mean, mostly they didn't know, and it made their morning sickness go away. The doctor was like, this is a miracle.
>> Farz: Oh, that's what it was.
It was a medicine for morning sickness. And then they found out later
It was a medicine for morning sickness.
>> Taylor: Got it.
>> Farz: Okay.
>> Taylor: Yeah, yeah. And they were like, you'll be fine. This is perfect. And then they found out later. And then even after they knew, they didn't get rid of it right away.
Taylor: I definitely am pro vaccine. I obviously got multiple vaccine boosters
>> Farz: So, Taylor, when you went through this, when you were going through this, did you not see the obvious thread between, like, the COVID vaccine uproars and this?
>> Taylor: You mean, like, not trusting or has, like, made so quickly? Yeah.
>> Farz: Like, the fact that we, like, just implicitly are trustworthy of, like, the FDA and of, like, doctors when everything we've said so far is, like, these groups are all kind of crooked.
>> Taylor: They are all kind of crooked. But I definitely am pro vaccine. Like, it didn't take that long because we didn't start from the beginning, you know?
>> Farz: No, I know. I know. I'm just saying.
>> Taylor: So, yeah, but I understand.
>> Farz: I obviously got multiple vaccine boosters at the time when people would bring up, like, being anti vaxx. Like, you're crazy. And then after a while, I was like, I was like, we all just agreed to inject some shit into our bodies that, like, hasn't been around very long, hasn't been done before, and we were just like, yeah, it's fine. We'll just do it. And then when. When I saw John legend doing a commercial, like, he did a commercial for the vaccine, and I was like, oh, my God, like, what have I done? But, like, whatever, we're past. I'm, past it. It's already been done. Whatever ailments I'm going to have because of it, if I do, it's already overd with, but whatever. Yeah, we shouldn't trust medicine just because they're doctors.
>> Taylor: That's true. And I think that that's interesting because I feel. That makes me feel very conflicted. Cause, like, do your own research isn't like, maybe talk to two doctors. Don't go on the Internet.
>> Farz: Right, right.
>> Taylor: You know what I mean? Like, don't talk to your friend. Talk to two doctors or three, and then see maybe, So, yes, that was the next thing I was gonna say. Moms are prescribed or given samples of thalidomide for morning sickness, which has never really been researched. Has been now. But for most of time, you know, like, they didn't give a shit. They were like, women have babies anyway. and sometimes they're just women being hysterical, you know, which is not true because warning, sickness is real, but whatever. so it didn't matter how much thalidomide you took. It mattered when you took it in your pregnancy. So it messes with nerves. And for a lot of science time, there was a thought that the placenta, which is like the sack around the baby, was a barrier so that whatever the mom did would not affect the baby, which is ridiculous. It's not made of lead. It's made of, like, gross stuff. Like, it's not. How could that. I just feel like it's obvious.
>> Farz: Go through the umbilical cord from the mom.
>> Taylor: Yes. It feels super obvious that whatever the mom does is something that affects the baby. But for a long time, they didn't know that and. Or they didn't research it. They didn't care. And, like, they thought that the baby was protected in the placenta, which it is, is not. and, so when a mom would take thalidomide, usually they would take it in the first trimester, because that's when morning sickness is the worst, and it would interfere with the nerves and the development of the baby. So you can tell when a mother took thalidomide based on the deformities of the child. So if you took it in day 20 to 24 after conception, so you're in your third to fourth week of pregnancy, you're, like, just pregnant, it would affect the ear development. So the child would be born without ears. If that's all you took and you stopped taking it, then that's the only thing that could have happened to your baby if you took it during that exact time. But if you keep taking it or take it at different times, so if you take it in day 24 to 28, which is the fourth to fifth week, that is the arms. So a lot of the babies had no arms or deformed arms. And that was because moms are taking it in the fourth to fifth week, which makes sense because that's a good time where you, like, realize that you're pregnant and you're starting to feel badlandhouse.
>> Farz: Right.
>> Taylor: again, if she stops taking it then and only took it during that time, then it would be only the arms. So if she had not taken it during days 20 to 24, then the baby would, the ears would be okay. But then the next couple days, if she took it during that window, it would be the arms. The day 28 to 33 is the legs. So it doesn't matter how much she's taking. If she's taking it at all during that time, it'll be the legs. Day 34 to 36, the hands of and feet. So it was the arms, and you'd have, like, a little bit of hand coming out or like, very, very, like, small arms, but it would be the hands that were next and then onward, it was less likely to hurt the baby. So if you took it, like, after day 40, the limb defects decreased, so you wouldn't necessarily see it. But a lot of other organs could still be affected. The heart, the kidney, the eyes, the gastrointestinal tract, just a whole bunch of other things that could happen. But day 20 to 36 is the time where, it mattered the most. If you took it anytime during that time. Does that make sense?
>> Farz: It does. It's all based on the. Yeah, I mean, it totally tracks. It's all based on the development cycle, right?
>> Taylor: Yeah, exactly.
>> Farz: Wait, so it wouldn't affect the brain?
>> Taylor: No. Well, a little bit. There are, there are, a couple people that I saw, like, in the documentary where it did affect their brain, and they do have, like, some learning, disabilities, but a lot of them don't. It's just physical.
>> Farz: Interesting.
>> Taylor: Yeah. so the first documented little by baby was born in Germany. He was born on Christmas day, and he had no ears, so he was like, the first one. His. His father worked at Khmer Grunenthal, and he had given his wife some pills to test them out, while she had been pregnant. globally, there were up to 10,000 litomide babies in total. more than half of them died at birth, either because they were so, like, their organs didn't form and they were never going to live. Some of them were killed, smothered, left to die in the cold by doctors and nurses.
The most thalidomide babies were born in west Germany
they would. Look, there was a man in the documentary I watched who was a grown man. he had no arms or legs, and, he. But he was saying that when he was born, they put him in a box and, like, left him in the corner of the room. And the doctors finally heard him cry, and they're like, oh, I guess it's alive. They were just going to leave him.
>> Farz: So I think I heard that the first person ever killed as part of, like, the Nazi, you know, whatever it was, I guess, holocaust. Like, it was a baby like that. It was like an access officer whose baby was born with some wild defects.
>> Taylor: Mm
>> Farz: And they're like, just get rid of this thing. And, like, we're gonna be testing with other people anyways. Might as well do with this baby.
>> Taylor: Yeah, I think that this, that story came up in. In, this as well, because, Yeah, exactly. That they. The Nazis obviously would. If a baby was born with anything wrong with it, they would just kill it. there was some. I think there was later, but there's some doctors who would just be like, forget you had a baby and go home and just get pregnant again and do it again. Let's just forget this one. You know, like, you can't see it. Like you don't want to see it, things like that. there were also exposure around the world, so it definitely was in, like, parts of Africa, parts of Asia, but I have some numbers from Europe. And, the most thalidomide babies were born in Germany, in west Germany. East Germany did not approve it. I feel like probably because they were busy with, like, dealing with that being East Germany, they were, like, trying to get heat. You know, they weren't worrying about, like, expensive drugs.
>> Farz: So, yeah, this was probably also a luxury drug, right?
>> Taylor: Yes, yes, exactly. Yes. so there are about 2500 to 3000 babies born in Germany. and 2000 in the United Kingdom. Japan had anywhere from 1000 to 1500. Australia, New Zealand, there were 400 to 500. Canada, there were 115 or so. Sweden, 180 other countries. In Europe, there were about 200 in total. And in the United States, there were only 17 babies affected. And I will tell you why. There were only 17 in the US FDA. Yes. But in one particular person at the FDA who said no. Bunch of times. so a quick timeline of the FDA. Exactly. You're exactly right. the first federal food, drug and Cosmetic act was in 1938. That replaced the 1906 Pure Food and Drug act. So. The 1906 Pure Food and Drug Act. I only laugh because this is ridiculous. They created it because there were people putting antifreeze in kids medicine because it knocked them out.
>> Farz: We were either so much hardy, or is this why we were Hardy back then?
>> Taylor: Because, like, I mean, if you survived this, you know, like, if your parents would, like, give you poison, they could go to the movies or they could go out dancing, you know, then, like, yeah, if you get through that, then, like, you just have to. You can be. You'll be a raging alcoholic the rest of your life, but, like, you'll live.
>> Farz: I mean, now we die of peanut allergies, so I don't know.
>> Taylor: I don't know. so after so the 1938 food, drug, and cosmetic act started the FDA. and I thought it was interesting that they added cosmetics, but. Totally makes sense. There should be regulation on stuff that you, like, smooth all over your skin, because, again, we're porous like a placenta. You know? Like, shit's gonna get in there. Nice callback, you know? You know what I mean? and this is the first time they involved chemistry. They're like, oh, we should use science in deciding what is safe and what is not safe people to have in and on their bodies.
Frances Oldham Kelsey saved babies in the United States in 1914
so, introducing Frances Oldham Kelsey. She is a doctor who saved the babies in the United States. She was born on July 24, 1914. She will live to be 101. so, I just wanted to reference another Billy Joel song and say, sometimes the good die old. Pretty cool. So, she was born in Canada, the very british parents. She ended up going to Chicago for her PhD, and she's going to have several postdoctoral fellowships in pharmacology. M her husband, moves is also a doctor. He goes to South Dakota. His name is Fremont Ellis Kelsey. They married in 1943. They have two daughters. And, like, they're so smart, and they're very supportive of each other. So they're, like, the kind of couple that's like, I'll watch the kids, you go get your MD. Then you watch the kids, and I'll go get my md. You know?
>> Farz: That's great.
>> Taylor: Just like, all that stuff.
Francis Kelsey was hired by the FDA to review new medicines
So, in the 1960s, Francis Kelsey was hired by the FDA to review new medicines. So, each new medicine that would be asked to be approved by the FDA has a go through an application process called an NDA, which is a new drug application. It can be anything from, like, a little to a lot of research. And sometimes it can be things like, I'm a doctor, and I think that this pill that my friend uses in Italy can help my patient that has this very specific thing. My patient has agreed to try it. Can I try it? So, it's just one person trying a thing, and sometimes it's these huge companies that are, like, we invested millions and billions of dollars in creating this drug. We want it to be able to be sold in the US. So, what they look for is, like, clinical trials, animal testing, and, like, there's definitely a lot to talk about with animal testing, but. Did you just ever listen to doctor death?
>> Farz: Are you talking about Jack of Orkian?
>> Taylor: No. There's, like, a podcast called Doctor Death that talks about, like, different doctors who, who messed up and, like, just did really, like, dangerous things. And then one guy was like. Like, lie, that the same things were tested on animals and they weren't. And it obviously didn't work in, like, a human body and, like, in anybody at all. You know, like, kind of wild stories. But they get all of this research, they get these applications. when she started, there were seven full time and four part time physicians just reviewing the applications, and a lot of stuff got through that maybe shouldn't have gotten through because they were just, you know, you. You have a thousand applications at your desk and you're paid per application in some cases, so you're just going to, like, kind of zoom through them. So, the. One of the first things that came across her desk when she started at the FDA was a drug called Kevadon, which sounds like the word abaddon, which is a portal into darkness from the Bible. But, Kevadon was thalidomide. That was the name of the drug in. In the US, and it was being distributed by a company called Merrell. And they were really. They really wanted to push it for morning sickness, for anxiety. So they also would say things like, well, what if we sold it to, like, just men for anxiety, you know? But you're like, you can't control that. And that's not how that works. You know, if anyone happened to have it, these things could happen. she kept sending them requests for more information, but she was never satisfied that it was. That it was safe. in the UK and around Europe, they will start to make the connections between thalidomide and these deformities. By the time they do that, by the time they take it off, the market in 1961, it never got into the United States. And it's because of her, because she kept saying no. And even with all the pushback and the money and all the things, she was just like, I don't feel comfortable with this. I don't think it's safe. So it didn't go through. In 1962, she was awarded the president's award for distinguished federal civilian service. There's a really cute picture of her in JFK where he's, like, giving her an award. yeah, she would win a ton of awards. She got a lot of really great fan mail. that was, like, in the books that I read, and it was very sweet. It was like, mom's being like, I 100% would have taken that shit. Thank you for taking it off the market, for not giving me the opportunity. You know, what it does is just.
>> Farz: Put you to sleep.
>> Taylor: No, no, that didn't just put you to sleep. It would calm you down, make you a little high, and you wouldn't be sick anymore. So it didn't put you to sleep? No, no. I was saying, like, in the beginning, I was like, when people were studying morning sickness, they were like, let's just knock them out. Like, no one really studied it, but this, like, seemed to solve the problem. So they just were like. Like, you know, sometimes, like, they have a drug and they're like, oh, we found out it does this thing, so, yeah, we can market it for this. You know, it was kind of like that.
>> Taylor: so she's gonna get a ton of awards, ton of mail. She did save a lot of babies, other, things that she'd work on. She works in the FDA for 45 years. she works on things like trying to stop fake sugar from entering the market, and, other drugs that were not, That were not, safe, but she would live, be pretty famous in the United States until her death in the nineties, because of all of the work that she did to stop this from happening.
>> Farz: It was funny. As much shit as I just talked earlier about the FDA, when I was in Mexico, I did go to a mexican pharmacy. So just out of curiosity. And they had, like, a lot of, like, knockoff brand version of, like, drugs that, like, the names were familiar to us, and I was like, this feels risky.
>> Taylor: Yeah.
>> Farz: Like, I don't know if I want to risk roll that kind of a dice.
>> Taylor: Yeah. And I think there's so many things that complicate it, too. Like, I don't know, how does this interact with this medication or this medication or, like, this thing that I'm doing, you know?
>> Farz: Yeah.
>> Taylor: That all feels. It feels really. It feels kind of scary to think of, like. And then, like, maybe you're the first person who ever took those two drugs together, you know, and, like, something terrible happens, so it's hard to even tell, you know, what. What it could do.
>> Farz: Yeah. But it also goes back to the point of, like, this is all human created stuff. Like, yeah, a company invests money to create a product, in this case, a drug, and then they do whatever they can to get that drug approved and then cram it down the throats of doctors.
>> Taylor: Yeah. And, like, the goal initially was to stop your nerves from convulsing when you get hit with nerve gas.
>> Farz: So I remember this from law school, which was, that for the longest time, drug companies weren't allowed to advertise drugs on the television or, like, directly to patients. Was always supposed to be this, like, drug company to doctor to patient kind of chain, of command or whatever. but what, they got some ruling or something where they allowed that to happen, but as a result of that, it was then the burden of risk of taking that drug was transferred from your doctor to you. And the way they could, they could allow that to happen was at the end of every commercial, they had to tell you every potential thing that a doctor would tell you. So you know what the risks are when you go in and you actually ask for the drug by name? That's why every commercial ends with cause. Blindness, death, suicide. Like, you don't, like, just thing after thing, everything. So wild.
>> Taylor: That's wild.
There were some daily podcasts about how the Biden administration had renegotiated prices
Yeah. I don't know that. I don't know, like, the best way to do it. You know?
>> Farz: Our healthcare system is so crazy.
>> Taylor: It's wild.
>> Farz: It's crazy. Like, yeah, everyone's got their hand in the cookie jar. Or the fact that, like, I was. There were some daily podcasts around how the Biden administration had renegotiated, like, the prices of, like, diabetes medication or insulin or something through Medicare or Medicaid.
>> Taylor: Mm
>> Farz: And how, like, they're only allowed to negotiate, like, these ten drugs, and, like, in a couple of years, they hope they can increase that to, like, 20 more drugs. It was like, what are you talking about? You're the federal government.
>> Taylor: Like, I wonder, I wonder, what the list is. Oh, wait, okay, we get from August 2014. So, list of drugs. Because I take. Mine isn't on here. I take a blood sugar pill. but, mine's only fifty four cents a month. Isn't that amazing? Like, I don't know why fifty four cents a month?
>> Farz: Well, probably because so many people do have to take it. That per unit cost can be.
>> Taylor: But I mean, like, but that's like, I mean, a whole thing where, like, you know, they'll sell an inhaler in Canada for $50 and in the US is $800, you know?
>> Farz: Yeah.
>> Taylor: Like, that's real fucking shitty.
>> Farz: Yeah, yeah.
>> Farz: Interesting. Okay. I never, never, knew that. I never knew this was anything other than, like, a genetic defect as opposed to, like, someone taking a drug.
>> Taylor: Yeah. It's not genetic at all. And I have, I have another. Another bit. A bit to tell you.
>> Farz: Yeah.
>> Taylor: about what happened in the UK. So in the UK, it was marked. I marketed as distavol from the company distillers. So distillers was a booze company. They made Johnnie Walker gin and Gordon's gin and, they bought their thalidomide directly from Kemi Grudenthal. And they did it honestly, just because they heard that drugs are going to be more popular than booze. So, like, we should get into drugs.
>> Farz: I mean, they're not wrong.
>> Taylor: so it hit the shelves in 1958 in the UK. the UK health ministry, they just took the tests that distillers said they did at face value. They got their test directly from Kimmy Grudenthal. They didn't do any of their own testing, and they said, great, seems fine. They didn't ask for anything else the way that, the FDA was asking for more. And again, it was a miracle drugs. Drug for mom. So the doctor would be like, oh, you feel terrible. Take a couple of these, you'll feel better. And you did, you did feel better.
People didn't know what was happening when thalidomide was prescribed
and so this is also, like, so we're in the late fifties, early sixties, and you're living in, like, a tiny town in the UK, and you maybe just get them from the town GP, the town doctor. and sometimes you get them from other people. So, like, the 17 babies that were in the United States, most of them were because, like, someone went to Europe, and then while they were in Germany, they were like, oh, your wife has warning sickness. Give her this. You know?
>> Farz: Yeah.
>> Taylor: Or they were like, oh, this was prescribed to me, a man, for my anxiety. You seem anxious. Why don't you take it? You know, without even thinking that, like, that could potentially be different for a pregnant person. so a lot of people, this started to happen and they didn't know what was happening, obviously. So they thought that, you know, it was a genetic defect. They thought that they had done something wrong, like purpose, like something that they should have not done. They didn't. They could have. Could have possibly known about, you know. there were priests that would be like, it's God's will, which is like, fuck you. and a sad thing, they don't have the exact number on it, but a lot of the dads left, and they left the moms with the babies. There was a sweet mother and she said, my husband said, it's me or the baby. And she said, he left and haven't seen him since. It was him, like, 50 years.
>> Farz: What's the mom supposed to do, bash its head against the rock? Like this law still exists?
>> Taylor: Yeah, no. many were born again, like I said, alive, but not allowed to live. So they were left out or they were smothered, because they were deformed. and at the time, the minister of health in the UK is named Enoch Powell. I looked him up and he has a whole thing about wanting the people who were colonized by the British to leave Britain and go back to their homes. He's got a hole, a lot of stuff going on, but he's the one who disapproved it and didn't. Didn't ask for any more tests. He also, they had tests that said that a pap smear, can save lives because it can detect cancer early, which it can. and he refused to let. To let it be legalized in the UK for, like, five years for no reason. He just didn't want to.
>> Farz: No, he wasn't getting bribed by the right person.
>> Taylor: Exactly. That's exactly right. Yes, yes, you're right. so before the thalidomide scandal, a journalist named Harold Evans, before he becomes editor of the Sunday Times, he launched a campaign for pap smears and he won and got them to be something that they would do in the UK. so once they started to realize that it was thalidomide that did these things, they finally took it off the shelves in 1961. But they didn't. Like, Enoch Powell wouldn't take the existing stuff off the shelf and he wouldn't tell people why he took it off the shelf. He just, like, didn't. And you're right, he's probably bribed people not to say anything.
>> Farz: Yeah.
>> Taylor: You know, if he said something.
>> Farz: He probably would have subjected them to legal liability because then what? You have the highest person for that role saying that.
>> Taylor: yeah, yeah. So Harold Evans was like, okay, now I'm the editor of the Sunday Times, biggest paper in the UK. Like, let's try to help these people and try to find them and get them together, because a lot of families, like I said, didn't know. You know, like, you're the only kid in the village who's like that, who knows. You never met anyone else like you before, you know what I mean? You know? So, in the beginning, 62 families got together to sue. But while they were in litigation with distillers, the press was not allowed to report on it. It's no longer the law in the UK, but it was then that you couldn't report on an ongoing trial. So they pushed it out as long as possible, until. Pushed it over three years, making it really hard for other parents to find them because they would have been able to be like, does your child look like this? Did this happen to you? It could be this. Come join us. And then they would have to be like, do you remember taking a pill? And they'd be like, yeah, someone give this to me. Or my doctor gave it to me, here's the bottle. Or it looked like this or whatever, but they made it really hard for them to find them. So finally, some parents just wanted to settle with distillers. Distillers was gonna give them, like, a couple thousand pounds and be like, go away. but one father, he was an art dealer named David Mason. He and Harold Evans worked together a lot, and they started a moral campaign. So they were allowed to do, not necessarily talking about the facts of the case in the paper, but they were allowed to talk about what was happening to the children. So they started to send journalists to live with the families and be like, how? You know, a lot of the families had, like, five kids, and one of the five kids can't walk, you know, so, like, how difficult that life is for them and the assistance that they need, to be able to do that. Also, like, this was something interesting that they said in the book that I hadn't thought of is, like, pre industrial revolution. And we've talked about this, too. Like, in medieval times, like, everyone was kind of deformed, you know, like, you broke your arm. Your arm was broken forever, you know?
>> Farz: Like, that's a good point.
>> Taylor: You weren't, like, if you. If every time you get injured, like, it's compounds, because you can't. There's no. There's no real doctors, like I said, like, someone's selling poison in the woods, like, try to make you feel better. So before the industrial revolution, seeing people who had, like, physical abnormality abnormalities, was normal because they would be like, unfortunately, on the streets, you know, or, like, you see them around. Then they start to do things like create hospitals and places for them to go. I mean, not great places, you know, but places. And they hid them from society. So now you have these kids, and people haven't seen anyone like this before. So they would, like, go to the journalist, went to the beach with one of the kids, and the whole beach cleared away, you know, or they go to the store, and everybody would leave the store. Like it was contagious, you know, like, people were just, like, treating them really, really poorly as well, on top of, like, everything else. so they weren't blaming distillers in these. In the paper, but they were like, look at this, you know, like, trying to get around it. And distillers was trying to sue them this whole time. Too. But they were just like, we're going to talk about it because people need to know about it. distillers was so mad at, David Mason, the father, his daughter Lisa, was one of the, one of the victims.
David Mason launched a boycott of distillers products in 1972
they took custody of his daughter. He got him to lose custody of her because they were like, he's not taking the settlement. He's a bad parent. He could be getting this money for her. and eventually he got her back, but he wouldn't stop. He was like, this is not enough money. We need ongoing support and we need care. they ended up getting it to a debate in parliament. And David Mason went to the United States to meet with Ralph Nader, who we should talk about.
>> Farz: He is a very interesting character.
>> Taylor: So interesting. So he's young, super cute. He has black hair, and he's a consumer advocate. And so he worked with David Mason to help work on their case against distillers. they wanted 20 million pounds, as like a, for all the families, like, in total that were part of the lawsuit. so they were like, distillers is never going to, to do this. Like, you can't, you can't, they're never going to give you the money that you want. And one thing that David Mason did and they decided to do is so David Mason is on the plane to the US to meet with Ralph Nader to figure out what to do. He's on the plane and they have the drink cart and they're coming around and they're like, oh, would you like some, like, whiskey? We have a Johnnie Walker. And he was like, no. Like, this is the company that I'm, in the middle of this lawsuit with. So he walked behind the flight attendant the entire flight, and no one bought gin from or booze from distillers on the entire flight. And he said this in the, in an interview that he had with Ralph Nader. And he launched a boycott of distillers products in 1972. Their stock lost $35 million in nine days. Good for him, because people, people boycott. and that's what got them to finally give them the money. They gave them 20 mil, 20 million pounds. And they said, well, we're going to get taxed on this money, so we need an extra five. So they gave them 25 million pounds. distillers will eventually be sold, and it is now owned by Diageo, which owns, like, all the drinks.
>> Farz: Yeah.
>> Taylor: and they still, Diageo still pays into a trust for the children of thlidomide, and they adjust it for inflation and they adjust it for their needs. So they're doing it. They're really.
>> Farz: How many adults are there right now from this era?
>> Taylor: There aren't that many. There's maybe like a couple hundred folks. Like 800, not that many.
>> Farz: It's a rough life, man. That is a rough life.
>> Taylor: It's a really rough, you know, In 2010, the minister of state for health services in the UK, Mike O'Brien, publicly apologized for the role that, the health services ministry had in, the little mise scandal. and a lot of them were really, you know, grateful to have that official recognition and that official apology. there have been some little my babies in the past couple years in South America, because they have been using it to treat leprosy, in some cases because of that same thing where it inhibits the production of, inflammation. And when you have leprosy, it's just like, all this is like inflamed things, you know? So they're experimenting at doing that there. And then some cases, women have accidentally taken it during pregnancy, but before they knew they were pregnant. Or, I mean, imagine having leprosy and being pregnant.
>> Farz: I don't. Yeah, like the.
>> Taylor: I don't even know what. I'm sorry. I'm laughing because I just don't even know what to do with that.
>> Farz: The combination is just like. Yeah, oil and water a little bit. Interesting.
>> Taylor: Yeah.
>> Farz: Wild little intersection.
Never fly into Mexico City International Airport. It could take you 30 minutes
We got a Ralph Nader shout out in the middle of this one, too.
>> Taylor: I know. I feel like I want to learn more Ralph Nader things. I just feel like the whole. We were soured by the little election thing. but also he made everybody use seatbelts, which is a good thing. So,
>> Farz: Yeah, he was also right about that, the Ford Pinto. But I think what people. Because he drafted unsafe, or he wrote unsafe at any speed, that's when he became, like, he blew up on the national stage. Was he going off the Ford Pinto? But it's interesting because, like, in that situation, that's just how cars were made. It's not that the Ford Pinto was like a unique shit box. Like, they were all shit boxes.
>> Taylor: Right. But he was like, let's stop them brewing shit boxes. But, like, call it out.
>> Farz: Yeah, yeah. So also, it was named after a horse. A pinto is a type of horse, not a bean. No, it was not named after the bean. It was named after a horse.
>> Taylor: It's looked like a pinto bean, sort of. You know how they have, like, the things sort of.
>> Farz: Yeah.
>> Farz: anyways, that was fun. That was an interesting story. It made me think a lot about, you know, just how things work here.
>> Taylor: yeah, it's wild.
>> Farz: Yeah.
>> Taylor: So still try to stay alive every day. And that's. That's all you can do.
>> Farz: That's all you can do. That's all you can do. Never fly into Mexico City International Airport. Do anything you can. If you have to reroute yourself to the Arctic Circle to get around going there, please do.
>> Taylor: So we were in. Remind me a little bit. We were in Tokyo, and the. Tokyo has the biggest subway station in the world. And we were lost in there for, like, maybe an hour. There's no exit signs. You're like, what the hell? We went out a door. We were in a building that we couldn't get out of. We were like, what? Like, have people been here for days? How do you get out of here? It's crazy.
>> Farz: you don't get your gate until 30 minutes before boarding. Also, they will close boarding before when they say they're closing. Boarding if. Even if people aren't there. And then the best part is, if you get your gate, sometimes the gates on the other side of the airport. So it could take you an hour. It could take you 30 minutes. You have no idea. It's just there was a guy sitting behind me in line earlier today, this morning. He was like, I've been here since Friday. I can't get the flight.
>> Taylor: It was like.
>> Farz: Like, he looked.
>> Taylor: Is he, like, unshaven and.
>> Farz: Yeah, he was like a shell of a man. Like, just his skin was, like, gray. It was really weird.
>> Taylor: Oh, my God. Poor guy. That sounds terrible. Yeah, no, I, I remember one time I went to the airport in Germany. I don't know if it was in Berlin or, like, a smaller airport outside of Berlin, but you checked in at your gate. You just, like, every door was a gate. You checked in there, and then you walked right to your gate. I was like, very efficient of you Germans. Good job.
>> Farz: That's not. Yeah, that's not a bad way to do it.
>> Taylor: Yeah.
>> Farz: anyways, thank you for sharing, Taylor.
It is almost October, and we're about to head into an election
is there anything else that you want to say before we sign off?
>> Taylor: I did want to quickly mention that it is almost October, and I don't know if you know or you saw, but the calendar for a scary movie night is out. Our friend does a scary movie night. So I wanted to challenge you to join us at least once this year. Bars. Because you never join.
>> Farz: I'm just. Yeah, I'm bad at the time zone thing.
>> Taylor: Juan was like the only job of someone in central time is to figure out what time it is in other time zones. So you can't be bad at it.
>> Farz: That's 100% true. He's actually not right. He's not wrong about that. yeah, it'll be exciting. yeah, a lot of fun stuff coming up. It's incredible. I can't believe it's already October.
>> Taylor: I know, wild.
>> Farz: And we're about to head into an election. Ah, it's gonna be a crazy couple of months. yeah, but TBD. okay, cool. Anything else?
>> Taylor: That's it. Thank you. everyone, please find us at doom to fill pod on all the socials. If you have any suggestions, email us doomdofellapodmail.com and tell your friends, leave us reviews please.
>> Farz: Awesome. I'm gonna go ahead and cut it off.