Do you remember October 1987? If you were around, there is no way that you missed the live CNN coverage of Jessica McClure stuck in a well (essentially, an 8-inch pipe; "well" is generous) in Midland, TX. It was the second time that CNN's live reporting attracted millions of viewers (the first was when The Challenger exploded the year before). May we also suggest watching 'Everybody's Baby' the TV movie with Patty Duke! The YouTube we link to has commercials! It's great. Happy to report that Jessica is thriving today!
Do you remember October 1987? If you were around, there is no way that you missed the live CNN coverage of Jessica McClure stuck in a well (essentially, an 8-inch pipe; "well" is generous) in Midland, TX. It was the second time that CNN's live reporting attracted millions of viewers (the first was when The Challenger exploded the year before). May we also suggest watching 'Everybody's Baby' the TV movie with Patty Duke! The YouTube we link to has commercials! It's great.
Happy to report that Jessica is thriving today!
Photos from People ->
Baby Jessica: 30 Years After Being Rescued From The Well | PEOPLE - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksZMIvHNeJ0 -
Everybody’s Baby - 1989
https://youtu.be/4WVY4evvRaM?si=8IynMR-jFIaB3H9h
this version has COMMERCIALS!
Here’s the house - https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/3309-Tanner-Dr-Midland-TX-79703/50140151_zpid/
COLUMN ONE : A Hero’s Fame Leads to Tragedy : Helping to pull little Jessica McClure from a Texas well made firefighter Robert O’Donnell a star. But the limelight soon turned to darkness. - https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1995-05-24-mn-5474-story.html
Photos from -
https://www.biography.com/celebrities/baby-jessica
Hi Friends! Our transcripts aren't perfect, but I wanted to make sure you had something - if you'd like an edited transcript, I'd be happy to prioritize one for you - please email doomedtofailpod@gmail.com - Thanks! - Taylor
Taylor: I woke up at 1pm today only because my husband woke me
>> Taylor: In the matter of the people of State of California vs. Oriental James Simpson, case number BA097.
>> Farz: And so, my fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you.
>> Taylor: Ask what you can do for your country.
>> Farz: Boom. Taylor, welcome. Hi. How are you?
>> Taylor: Good. How are you?
>> Farz: I'm good. I'm doing well. I'm, I was just telling Taylor that I had a Sunday fun day early today, which kind of makes you a little bit useless towards the end of the day. So energy's gonna be a little bit low, but maybe that'll be a good thing.
>> Taylor: We'll.
>> Farz: We'll test whether low energy fars is good for the listenership.
>> Taylor: We'll see what happens. Yeah, I know. And I was saying that I woke up at 1pm today only because my husband woke me up and he said, taylor, it's one. And then I said what? I kind of felt like he was telling me it was one in the morning. It was, like, very confusing, you know, And I was like, okay, I guess I'll get up. But I'd sleep all day if I were allowed to.
>> Farz: Is awesome.
>> Taylor: Sleeping's my jam. cool.
Doomed to Fail podcast features most notorious disasters, epic failures and interesting stories
Well, welcome to Doomed to Fail, where the podcast that brings you history is most notorious disasters, epic failures, interesting stories, and I am Taylor, joined by fars.
>> Farz: Yes, I'm here joining Taylor. We are going to dive into probably a fascinating story, at least I know it will be for Taylor. Mine, who knows? but, Taylor, what do you got for us?
>> Taylor: Wow. Low energy forest is something. It's something or something right now. okay, let's go. Fars, you are from Texas.
>> Farz: It's true.
>> Taylor: Do you remember what happened in 1987 in Midland, Texas? I know you were a baby.
>> Farz: Was it, the chlorine derailment?
>> Taylor: No.
>> Farz: Damn. All right.
>> Taylor: It involves a child in a well.
>> Farz: Is this about Timmy? Little Timmy in the well?
>> Taylor: It's baby Jessica. Do you remember baby Jessica?
>> Farz: I don't, but I'm confusing it with, like, so many different other stories. I'm thinking about Bart when he accidentally fell down the well.
>> Taylor: Right. And I'm sure that came from this story. Honestly.
>> Farz: Well, and then M in Lassie, it.
>> Taylor: Was like, timmy's always in a well.
>> Farz: Timmy's always in a well.
>> Taylor: So, yeah, yeah, that was like the 50s. yes, but, God, I used to watch Lassie. I forgot about that.
In 1987, baby Jessica fell into a well on live television
Anyway, in 1987, baby Jessica fell into a well. And it was a huge deal and it was all over the news. So let me tell you about it.
>> Farz: Sweet.
>> Taylor: so she's not the first child to fall into a well, as we have already just already talked about. I'm, sure it's happened a ton, especially when people were like.
>> Farz: I mean, technically we just list two fictional characters. One was a cartoon, so it was very Right.
>> Taylor: But those stories come from somewhere and I feel like sending your child out to like a well that you see in the movies to like bring up a bucket like that could be dangerous.
>> Farz: True.
>> Taylor: Do you think? I mean, you know, so a couple other children falling into wells that were on Wikipedia that I think are relevant because they were also on television. So this was a huge media event. So like, if you were old enough to watch TV in 1987, like, this is what you were watching. If you were watching it, it was the. I'll tell you a little bit more about that. it was like a 24 hour news network thing.
>> Farz: It was the. It was the original White Bronco OJ Chase.
>> Taylor: Exactly, exactly. so but before that a couple that also involved the television. And like I said, there's probably, I don't know, thousands, millions of children who've died in wells in all of human history. But in 1949, a girl named Kathy Fiskis fell into a well in San Marina, California. It was broadcast live on KTLA during the first times that like, it is a disaster like this was broadcast on, on live television. Like 1949. Live television is very, very new. She fell in on April 8th and they got her body out on April 10th. And she had been dead for a while, so they were reporting on it. They weren't sure if she were still alive. And then she ended up dying in, in the well. it was one of the first times there was like a long form TV thing where you would check in with the news to see how it was going. You know, like, people wanted to like, keep watching it so that.
>> Farz: So this is the first. So I have a thing where I generally just have the news running all the time.
>> Taylor: and I know a lot of people do. I don't, but I know a ton of people do. So this is one of the first times people will be like going back and checking and being like, is Kathy okay? Is Kathy okay? You know, got it. One of the really tragic and weird things is that her dad worked for the California water and Telephone company and they had drilled the well that Kathy fell in. Fell in in 1903. And he had recently testified before state legis nature for a law that would require to cement up old wells. So he was like trying to get that to be a thing. And then his daughter died in one before they had done that, which is terrible.
>> Farz: I mean, he picked the right issue to care about.
>> Taylor: It's just definitely a thing. Yeah. In 1981, an Italian boy named Alfredo Rampi filled on a well. A well.
>> Farz: This one's sad.
>> Taylor: I know this vermicino. Yes. It was the first live television event in Italy that had millions of people watch. He died about three days in, and they got his body out a month later. So it's very similar to. Tell me again, what's the name of the guy that died in the cave that you talked about?
>> Farz: I know it's Nutty Putty Cave.
>> Taylor: Yeah.
>> Farz: I can't remember the name of m. The guy.
>> Taylor: So that guy. It's similar to that where, like, everything they did kept pushing him lower and lower, you know, and it was just pretty awful. And, So that was terrible. he. He died as well. And that was also, like, criticized because the news was so there and, like, in the face of the rescuers and just, like, really on it. And that was very, I don't know, upsetting to a lot of people.
Jessica fell into a well that's not like the prototypical well
>> Farz: Was that a well or was that, like, just a, like, opening in the earth?
>> Taylor: That one. So I learned a tiny bit about wells, but, like, mostly I have no idea. So when I think of a well, I think of, like, the ring. Right. Like stones. Ah. And a bucket. And you fall in. And then, like, at a certain point, there's, There's water. Yeah. And you have to tread water for seven days. And then you die. And then you make a videotape somehow. Like, that's what a picture well. But the well that Alfredo fell into was a. And I'm gonna, like, make. Use my hands. It was a well where, like, the groundwater kind of goes. Not too deep. It's not too deep. And it's going down. And that well is, like, going in and, like, grabbing it. And there's, like, others. So it's like, not that. It's not that deep of a well. I don't think it's, like.
>> Farz: But it is a well. It's just not like the prototypical well. Got it.
>> Taylor: Right. It's not like. It's not like a. If you draw a picture of a well, you're not going to draw that. You're going to draw the one like. Remember the. Also, there was that guy who buried his wife under that fake well.
>> Farz: I'm just literally gonna be like, do you remember I did a story about this. Yeah. The well was in the front yard, like on the street. And he like threw a corpse in there.
>> Taylor: Yes. Yeah.
>> Farz: so she threw his corpse there. The woman killed the husband. That's what it was.
>> Taylor: Oh. Either way, there was a well involved, a fake well in that case. so I, so there's that, that, those kind of wells, but the one that Jessica fell in is actually different and I'll talk about that in a little bit. But it's, it's just like basically a pipe that she fell into.
Jessica McClure is missing after accidentally opening an underground well in 1987
So we're in America and it's in October 1987 and we're in Midland, Texas, which is like north west Texas. And Jessica McClure is 19 months old. Her parents are very, very young. They had her when they were 18. Her parents are Reba Cissy McClure and Louis Chip McClure. So they're Cissy and Chip are the name of her parents.
>> Farz: That's a very, very East Texas couple name.
>> Taylor: Yeah. So it's October 14, 1987 and Jessica is playing in her aunt's backyard. So her aunt owns like a home daycare and her mom is there helping out and Jessica is there as well. So there's four other kids and the kids are all playing in the backyard when the phone rings. Cissy goes inside to answer the phone. She's only gone for like a few minutes and when she gets back, the kids are screaming and she can't find Jessica. So she goes into the yard, notice Jessica's missing, and notices that the well has been opened. So this well is an 8 inch pipe. So it's not big, it's pretty small, like 8 inches pipe and it's a casing pipe. And from what I understand, which is very little, it means that it's like an access point to help pressurize like an underground well that goes to like the well water for like the town. So in people's backyards, there will be like pipes that are like regulating the flow, regulating the pressure and they keep them covered with like a rock. So you'll like have this and it like go. It's like part of the city well system in some way.
>> Farz: Am I the only one that finds it weird or old timey? The people pull their liquid out of the earth.
>> Taylor: I mean, don't we. That's where water comes from.
>> Farz: I know, but it's like weird when it's like in your backyard and then like you just go and do it.
>> Farz: I want to know that it came from a pipe like 10,000ft away. From the house in a cistern that was cleaned. You know what I mean?
>> Taylor: You know? Yeah, totally. I mean, I don't want to ever see what is in pipes.
>> Farz: Oh, my God. You know what? This is getting Terry again. Look, can we just.
>> Taylor: You know, I don't. I want to know nothing about that for sure.
>> Farz: In. In Houston, when I went to Houston to visit a cousin, they had this, like, underground, like. I don't know what you call it. I guess it's a cistern. It's like a place where they stored water. It, was empty now, but, like, you can go into it and they, like, made it into, like, a little tourism thing. And it was so scary. Imagine being in, like, this giant, empty void that. You know, I'm, getting scared again. Okay, now keep going.
>> Taylor: I like, my cheeks hurt.
>> Farz: I know, I know, I know. I can't do it.
>> Taylor: So, I mean. So I guess what I mean is when I say well, like, there's no water in the well. It's just like a pipe that accesses water. But she never touches the water. She never gets that down, like, that far. I don't know if there is water at the bottom of it, if it was, like, active or whatever. But essentially, you have this, like, pipe in backyard. so what they don't know, and they'll find out as they go, is they don't know how Jessica got in it. Like, they don't know what happened, how she moved the rock. the rock was pretty heavy. That was on top of the pipe. Like, they don't know how she did it. And what they don't know yet, but they'll find out later, is she goes in one leg first. So she's doing the splits in the pipe. So she has, like, her, like, little body. Her little head is up with her left leg, and then her right leg is down.
>> Farz: She was forced in. There's no way a human would do that, right?
>> Taylor: No, she's a baby. There's no. No conspiracy here. No one thinks another child pushed her in the well. She just fell.
>> Farz: It's a brother. It's the JonBenet story.
>> Taylor: No, she doesn't have a brother. And. No, no, I gotta retract that.
>> Farz: We don't know if JonBenet's brother did that. I don't wanna.
>> Taylor: I don't know. I think jonbeh's family did it for sure.
>> Farz: We can't get sued, Taylor. We don't know this.
>> Taylor: Oh, please, please. anyway, so essentially, she falls in with one foot. They don't Know that yet. I feel like she probably. Maybe she, like, kicked the rock off of it and then, like, put her foot in and, like, tripped and fell. Somehow she got. She fell in that way, and her left leg is above her head. So Sissy calls 911 immediately, obviously. And a ton of people come trying to figure out, what the hell are we going to do. They start by how did she know.
>> Farz: She fell in the well?
Baby Jessica fell into the well and her mother couldn't find her
>> Taylor: She could, like, hear her.
>> Farz: Oh, okay.
>> Taylor: Yeah. So she couldn't find her anywhere. And then she heard her crying inside the well. So she fell into the well. And they hurt Sissy, heard her in there, called the police, and they start coming. People start coming to help. What they need to do is drill a tunnel, like, parallel to the well to be able to get her. So for the first few feet, that's easy. It's like dirt seems gonna be. Seems like it's gonna be fine. And then they hit solid rock, And Jessica is 22ft below the surface, so she. They need something else, and they need to, like, dig really, really far. So they have to get, like, really advanced drilling equipment, which is great because they're in Texas and they have that, you know, so also 26.
>> Farz: A lot to fall. Well, I guess babies are made of, like, gelatin. Like, you can basically bounce them off the ground.
>> Taylor: I think that's a big part of it, too, you know, that, like, her, she's a little more malleable than an adult. so people start coming. There's obviously a ton of media attention. All, sorts of people with different kinds of drills. A, dude without collarbones says he help. Like, he's like, I can do things like spelunkers come in. People, offer their children to go down the well, and they're like, no, we're not going to take another child down the well. and what I didn't mention. I should have mentioned in the beginning, and I'll put in now, is I watched the TV movie again, that I remember watching in the 80s. It's called Everybody's Baby, and it is really good. And it has commercials in, like, it has 1989 commercials, and they're so good. So it's like Live News with Peter Jennings. Because it's the, The Tiananmen Square protests are happening live. There's a commercial for a VHS player, a bunch of commercials for, like, perms and shampoos, and then there's one for, like, a Toyota Corolla where this woman's like, I love my Toyota Corolla. It's fun. and then there's one for beef, like the Meat with Julia Louise Dreyfus and Lauren Bacall and they called beef real food. It's really bizarre. But anyway, I'll post it because it's super fun to watch those commercials, but TV movie like dramatizes it a lot. But it's also like very close to what was actually happening. Just like a lot of people are coming, trying to help, getting in the way, being involved, you know.
>> Farz: Yeah.
>> Taylor: So CNN was the only 24 hour news network in America and this was the second time that they had people tuning in in the millions at a time. The that had happened was the year before when the Challenger exploded. So this is the second big, big hit for CNN. They had its highest ratings for a single 15 minute period when 3.1 million households were all watching this happen live. Yeah. So that's how she got the name Baby Jessica. People also obviously wanted to like help her and they donated money and she ended up with about a million dollars in a trust fund that she got to take, take out when she turned 25. So a lot of people donated to help her. one person who was involved in the movie who was also a newscaster, his name is Rodney Wunsch. He was 23 years old and he was a reporter during the rescue. He was on scene for 35 hours. And he also became, he played himself in the TV movie essentially and he was super composed during his 35 hours in real life. They made him kind of act like he was tired and should probably go home during the TV movie. but he said that the movie was pretty accurate to what was happening in real time. So if you want to watch it, Patty Duke is in it as well. It's really good. So that's happening in the news. And in the meantime, Jessica is still in this pipe. They can't give her any food or water because they don't know what happened to her. Like if she had internal injuries, giving her water or food could really hurt her, you know. So it's also making her smaller because.
>> Farz: She'S like, oh, that's a good point.
>> Taylor: Like she's, she's obviously like a baby. So she obviously has like, she has a full diaper, but like that diaper is going to overflow at some point. And then also she's her belly is going to get smaller. She's going to get smaller because she's getting dehydrated and starving because she's not eating or drinking. It also gets really Cold because it's nighttime October, and It's, you know, 22ft underground. So they pump in heat, they pump in oxygen, and, they're talking to her with a microphone. And she's just a baby, so she can't have, like. She doesn't have, like, full sentences yet, but she does sing Winnie the Pooh, which, like, makes everybody cry because she's trying to, like, self soothe herself and, like, feel better. yeah, so she cries and they can, like, hear her whimpering. So they do try to get her to talk so they know that she's still alive. while they're drilling the shaft, they're drilling it next to the pipe, shaking everything, obviously. And it's shaking the pipe. So Jessica will get tired and she will lean her little head against the pipe. And while they're drilling the hole, the pipe will shake. So when she gets out, the skin on her forehead is rubbed off and she has a scar on her forehead for.
>> Farz: Oh, that's what that is. Okay.
>> Taylor: Yeah, that's what that is. And like, all of the scar, all of, like, the. The wounds on her are from just like, the rubbing up against the sides of the pipe while she's in it, Especially while it's vibrating, you know?
>> Farz: Yeah.
>> Taylor: So they drill this parallel shaft, but they're not gonna be able to get to her. They have to draw a horizontal shaft beneath her to be able to do that, get through the pipe and then pull her down. So they're going down and then across the. Underneath her. they ultimately get, like, a water jet cutting tool that's new in 1987, where they cut. They do a lot of the drilling with, like, water, and that helps them do that parallel shaft, but it's, like, very thin. And this is where, like, the guy is going to climb through it and be super claustrophobic, obviously, you know, it's just like the cave diving. when they get below her, it is like over 50 hours later when they finally get. Get down below where she is. And EMT Robert O'Donnell, he's the one that goes in the parallel shaft. he's one that gets her and pulls her out.
Taylor: Jessica McClure Morales was trapped in a diving shaft for 56 hours
When Robert O'Donnell was talking to the actor Whip Hubley, who played him in the. In the movie, he. He said, quote, you really feel like you were in a grave. You know, like, he really, of course.
>> Farz: Kind of what a grave is like.
>> Taylor: Exactly. So he used. They used KY Jelly and a. And a photographer's tripod that they, like, lubed up and like, kind of poked around her to kind of, like, let her loose. And he, like, lubed up the pipe from beneath and then was able to pull her down. But it took an hour of him being in this shaft, pulling her slowly. And finally he got her out. He pulled her through the parallel shaft. And in the. The bigger shaft, there's another man there, named Steve Forbes. He gave him to him. And they put her on, like, a, a spine board. That's what you'll see. Like, so she's on a board just to make sure that she doesn't get hurt anymore. That kind of tie her to it. And they pull her up. And then the picture of Steve Forbes holding her and carrying her out. That one. That picture is the one that will win the Pulitzer Prize, that year. and you can see that online as well. so after she got out, you know, 56 hours in total, she was in the. Well, she has that forehead scar on her forehead from rubbing against the edge of the pipe, on her left foot. That was the foot that was above her head. She lost her pinky toe. Initially, they thought they were going to have to amputate her entire foot because her foot had gangrene because it didn't have any blood flow to it for 56 hours.
>> Farz: Yeah, it's, like, really bad to, like, not move your body. It's funny, Taylor. Our stories are gonna overlap, like, in a weird way.
>> Taylor: Anyways, that was you. So she ended up losing a pinky toe, but they kept her foot. and generally, she. She was fine, fine afterwards. Ronald Reagan, who was president at the time, said, quote, everybody in America became godmothers and godfathers of Jessica while this was going on, because so many people were, you know, invested in it. In 1989, she met President Bush, and there's a cute picture of her wearing his glasses, which is cute. Her parents divorced in 1990, so they, went on to. To have their separate lives. And, Jessica didn't remember. She didn't remember what happened, which is good, you know, Also, like, you don't really remember a lot from that age. Anyway, later in life, she was watching a show called Rescue 91 1. And that's when she figured out that she was Baby Jessica.
>> Farz: That's. That's funny.
>> Taylor: Like, she just. She's literally didn't know. so she, There's a video from People that. I'll put the, on our sources as well. But her name now is Jessica McClure Morales. She's got married and, she has two kids. She, But she. I was gonna say. Oh, she. Oh, her. She was saying that her husband was like, I really love her. But, like, whenever we're out, people are always staring at her and talking to her. And, like, I don't know why. Like, he didn't know either for a long time that she was Baby Jessica, because she was, like, weirded out to tell him. and then she told him later. And so she talks about it and talks about, like, her life afterwards. She did get the money from the trust fund. It was like, a lot of it, unfortunately was depleted during the stock market crash in 2008, but she got some money in 2011 when she turned 25. the well itself was welded shut. And I don't see it on Zillow. I see the house on Zillow and I see the backyard. They probably just, like, totally got rid of it. I'll put that on the. In the sources as well. But you can see the backyard where it happens. Like a regular small house in, like, a regular neighborhood.
>> Farz: Yeah, a lot of those, like, cave diving accidents that, like, we've talked about before in the past, like, they will actually. You know what, the story you just mentioned, they did the same thing where, like, they, like, there's no entrance to anything there now. Like, they try to delete its existence, to not even try to make it interesting for people to attempt it.
>> Taylor: Yeah. And I'm sure the people who live in that house have people drive by all the time. You know, like, you drove by the house in. In, celebration, you know, like, that's just gonna happen.
>> Farz: It was a weird. Yeah.
Robert O'Donnell suffered from PTSD after the Oklahoma City bombing
>> Taylor: so one more sad thing to close out this story. Robert O'Donnell, the man that. That saved her, he ended up with, like, really intense ptsd. He, ended up on prescription drugs and just, really kind of felt like he wasn't able to get his life back. He felt like there was tons of media attention, a lot of pressure to be a hero. all this stuff that he was just like, not, just couldn't handle and was really upsetting. And then, when the Oklahoma bombing happened, he. This is from an LA Times article. He was talking to his mother as they were watching the news, and he said, quote, when those rescuers are through, they're going to need lots of help. I don't mean for a couple of days or weeks, but for years. So he was saying how much mental health help the rescuers in Oklahoma City were going to need. and then that sort of triggered his PTSD and his memory of baby Jessica. And on April 23, four days after the Oklahoma City bombing, he, died by suicide. And, he had two. He was only 37 and the father of two boys. And he wrote them a letter and it said, quote, I'm sorry to check out this way, but life sucks.
>> Farz: Geez.
>> Taylor: Which is pretty terrible.
>> Farz: Oh my God, his birthday is my birthday.
>> Taylor: Really?
>> Farz: Yeah.
>> Taylor: What year did he die? Will you tell me?
>> Farz: 95.
>> Taylor: 95. Yeah. So a couple years later, he was not. He was not able to handle it. So just like another reminder too take care of people after they go through something like this. Because it was. And luckily it had a good outcome and Jessica lived. But still the. So much trauma. I mean, being in that. Being in that shaft for an hour, being like, the whole world is watching me try to save this baby. What are you gonna do?
>> Farz: I mean, I think the Oklahoma City one is when having post traumatic, like therapy as like government funded version of that became a thing.
>> Taylor: Yeah. Yeah, that's fair.
>> Farz: Probably should be all the children.
>> Taylor: Yeah, absolutely should be. Absolutely should be.
>> Farz: I was actually talking about the Oklahoma City thing earlier today too. This is a weird episode.
>> Taylor: Interesting, interesting. Here we are.
>> Farz: Anyways, Sweet. Yeah, interesting.
Taylor: I talked to Brett Crawford about his fake kid story
So, yeah, I. I mean, you literally just took me right back to Bart in the. Well, Timmy O'Toole was the name of the fake kid that he created. Because remember, he got like a walkman. That was like a two way walkman thing. And he dropped that down the well and then the whole city gathered around him. But then he forgot that he like had labeled it with his name. And so he tried to rappel down there and get it when everybody was asleep. Then he actually fell down there. Then the whole city was pissed off at him. That was. That was the whole thing.
>> Taylor: So I don't remember. I don't remember those details, but. That's amazing.
>> Farz: Yeah. Now. Now I know where it came from. Isn't it funny how like the fake story embedded in my brain, I never knew the real story?
>> Taylor: Yeah, yeah, totally. I don't know unless the Simpsons did it before that, because I feel like they're always doing that.
>> Farz: No, this, no, for sure it was. It was after.
>> Taylor: Okay, good.
>> Farz: Definitely after.
>> Taylor: You know. You know what they do sometimes?
>> Farz: I know, I know, I know. They. They pre guess everything. Yeah, well, fun. That was a great story. And Taylor, you also, as an aside, did a recording with one of those. Volunteer or not volunteer, I guess. What do you call them?
>> Taylor: An incarcerated firefighter.
>> Farz: Yes, thank you.
>> Taylor: I did.
>> Farz: And you just uploaded that on Sunday, if I remember correctly.
>> Taylor: I did. I looked at Sunday after I woke up. So Sunday afternoon. And, it's great. It's an hour long conversation. And I talked to Brett Crawford. He, was in the prison system in Utah and in California and was part of the fire, like the fire conservation camps that we talked about, a couple weeks ago. And he was, we were talking about, you know, what, you know, the opportunities that he got from that, how it made him feel. and then, you know, what he needed to change his life. Wasn't that like the fire things didn't help, but it did help him sort of become a human again, you know, like so much of prison and you're just like learning how to be a criminal. Really. You're not, you're not doing rehabilitation. and like, focusing on that and doing that kind of gave him the path to begin to see he could be something else. And then he joined a, recovery program called the Delancey street foundation. And he traveled around with them, you know, speaking and, he guest lectured at Stanford and like, just talked about rehabilitation and things like that. And now he has a really great life. He's an amazing artist. he has this awesome series that he did about, about Pinocchio, which is like his, his thoughts were like, you know, building yourself out of, you know, becoming a real person and like, building yourself. And it's really cool. And so we had a great conversation. He was awesome. And yeah, I posted it and I hope that people listen. It was cool.
>> Farz: Very cool. Thanks for doing that, Brett. And Brett, if you listen to this, thank you for taking the time to have that conversation. I'm sure you have a million more stories.
>> Taylor: Exactly beyond that. yeah, yeah, yeah. He was like on. He was like on CNN and Good Morning America and he came on our show, which is like, just incredible.
>> Farz: It means we're getting famous.
>> Taylor: We're just here. It doesn't mean. It means I'm. I just. I just email someone and shot my shoot. My shot, shot my shoot, whatever.
>> Farz: You know, I'm also on his, his Instagram. Guys, go follow him. Brett Crawford, Inc. Is or at Brett Proffered Inc. Is his, page. And his artwork is truly, truly unique and interesting.
>> Taylor: It's cool, right?
>> Farz: Yeah, it's very cool.
>> Taylor: Yeah, I really like it. yeah, that's it. That was what I was going to close off with. Please listen to that. Share with your friends and help us kind of understand, like, I Don't know. Like, we were talking about far as, like, the headline wants you to feel a certain way, and you're like, how am I supposed to feel about this? You know, like, what am I supposed to do with this?
>> Farz: I've been so in that zone, Taylor. For the. For the record, I've been, like, messaging Taylor a bunch of, like, Instagram posts.
Taylor: I'm constantly thinking about what people want me to think
Like, some of my opinions and perspectives are kind of shifting a little bit on things. Things. And. And I'm just constantly just like, what do I really think? What is real? What. What do I. What do people want me to think? And what do I actually like? It's so interesting that you never actually zoom, out of your own body and think. Like, am I thinking the stuff that, like, I, truly believe? Or, like, is this just my echo chamber? Is this just the media?
>> Taylor: Is this just, like, whatever? Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like, I'm supposed to be mad. I'm supposed to be, like, happy. Like, what am I supposed to feel right now? You know? So it's good. It was great to talk to someone who had done it and listened to his story.
>> Farz: Yeah. Yeah. Love it. Thanks for doing that. cool. Anything else to sign off with?
>> Taylor: That's it. Please, if you have any, any ideas, give us an email. Doomed to fail podmail.com. doomed to fail a pod on all of the socials. and, you know, if something. If you relate to one of these stories and want to talk to me about it, I'd love to talk to you. Please tell me more.
>> Farz: And Taylor's a very good interviewer, for the record.
>> Taylor: Thank you. Brett did afterwards tell me that. Thank me for letting him talk and not talking over him and, a couple things that was very kind and made me feel good. I like doing it. You know, I'm like, I like hearing you. I want to hear what you have to say, so.
>> Farz: And also, a lot of interviews don't do that. A lot. A lot of them just come with their list of questions or, like, just. I want you to know how smart I am and how much I.
>> Taylor: Exactly. Like, exactly. Yeah. Who cares what I think? Yeah.
>> Farz: Cool. We'll go ahead and sign off then.
>> Taylor: Okay. Thank you.