Today, we close out Women's History month with the story of Sarla Thakral - who received her pilot's license in 1936 and was one of the first women pilots in India. Today, the average number of women pilots in India is double the global average! We'll learn about the support Sarla got from her husband, his tragic death, and her second act as an accomplished fashion designer!
Today, we close out Women's History month with the story of Sarla Thakral - who received her pilot's license in 1936 and was one of the first women pilots in India. Today, the average number of women pilots in India is double the global average! We'll learn about the support Sarla got from her husband, his tragic death, and her second act as an accomplished fashion designer!
Hi Friends! Our transcripts aren't perfect, but I wanted to make sure you had something - if you'd like an edited transcript, I'd be happy to prioritize one for you - please email doomedtofailpod@gmail.com - Thanks! - Taylor
Taylor: Hi, Taylor. How are you? I'm good. I'm on spring break in California
>> Taylor: In the matter of the people of State of California vs. Orenthal James Simpson, case number BA097. And so, my fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country.
>> Farz: Start again. Hi, Taylor. We're recording. How are you?
>> Taylor: Good. How are you?
>> Farz: I'm good. I'm good. Nobody will know that we had to cut the first 30 seconds out because we are professionals.
>> Taylor: Yep, sounds good. How are you? How have you been?
>> Farz: Good. I'm.
>> Taylor: You went to Dallas again?
>> Farz: I went to Dallas. Did a quick Dallas run Saturday, came back Sunday. So, you know, when I do those, it feels like Sunday, it's not really a weekend because you're like, yeah. Constantly driving. So, I mean, luckily today's been relatively chill, so that's good. But, yeah, spring's in full bloom. The wildflowers are out, so it's really lovely here in Austin, which is nice. So how are things on your end?
>> Taylor: Pretty good. I'm on spring break, so that is very, very nice. I am in Cal and, like, near the beach in California by a place where we can, like, walk to a beach. It's not, like, warm. It's kind of, like, foggy, you know, like the Pacific, but it's very nice. Yes, I am.
>> Farz: She's not.
>> Taylor: Stop it. We're here because it's Miles's birthday. He's gonna be eight on Friday.
>> Farz: I like how Miles is the fact checker here. Very cool, Very cool. Who goes first today?
>> Taylor: I think I do. And I have a short one.
>> Farz: Cool. Our way.
Doomed to Fail brings you history's most notorious disasters and failures
>> Taylor: All right, cool. Oh, wait. Hello. Welcome to Doomed to Fail. We bring you history's most notorious disasters and failures and interesting stories twice a week. I am Taylor, joined by Fars.
>> Farz: Yes, I'm also here, and I never remember this part as our listeners know.
>> Taylor: Yeah, we figured it out. I guess we could, like. No, we have a recorded intro, but that feels weird. Kind of like it as part of the banter. Anyway, I have one more for Women's History Month. Even though we're. Oh, shoot, we're late. So this is not going to happen in March. Whatever. We missed a day. But anyway, I'm here. I have one more for Women's History Month. It'll be a short one, but it's interesting. And it also brings out some other things that I think we should learn more about as well, because I was like, what can I learn about a woman that's, like, not from America? You know, most of the ones we do are, like. Or Europe? And so I wanted to do Like a non Western story this time. Sorry I had to kick everybody out of the room.
>> Farz: No worries.
>> Taylor: Right, so I'm going to go over to India and talk about the Amelia Earhart of India. But she lived to be old. Her name is Sarla the Kral.
>> Farz: I do. I've never heard of that.
>> Taylor: Yeah, so it's pretty cool. It's like there's not a ton of information, but the stuff that I got is really fun. And there's a couple other things that like, I don't know a ton about the history of India, especially when India in 1947 was divided into India and Pakistan. And obviously, like, that's a conflict ridden story and continues to be. So that's something I want to learn about more later in the future. But for now, Sarla Thakral was born on August 8, 1914 in Delhi in British India. So like I said, India stopped being like a British colony in 1947. So when she was born, it was still being ruled by Britain. So a little bit about the history of flying and I just read maybe a couple years ago, I read the David McAuliffe book on the Wright brothers and it's super interesting. Obviously, like, it's really wild how they went from like nothing to the oldest brother, Orville, I think he might be. Yeah, the older brother, he lived to see the bombs dropped on Japan. So crazy, you know, and like, that's just wild. So 1914, when Sarla was born is only 15 years after the Wright brothers did their first test flights at Kitty Hawk in North Carolina, which is why North Carolina gets to say first in flight on their license plates.
>> Farz: Oh, no. Well, they deserve it.
>> Taylor: They didn't live there. They lived. I think they lived in like Ohio. But they needed a place where they could have like a long stretch of beach to be able to do it. And obviously that was not in the Midwest. So they, they like rented some land in North Carolina. That's where they did a lot of their tests. There are a bunch of other people that also were like, figuring out how to fly at the same time, like there always is. But I do want to do the Wright brothers someday. The story is really good. But all that to say when. So I was born flying is. Is brand new. A couple other things that I thought just like that were interesting enough to mention in the history of flight is the Wright brothers also had a very smart sister named Catherine who was probably very, very involved. Like more involved than history has given her credit for in, in the stuff that they did. My one of My friends and I, we wanted to. We made, like, this stupid plot idea for a TV show. I feel like I maybe said this to you before called the Right Stuff about the Wright brothers trying to go on dates. And in the show, they would be, like, kind of, like, bumbling. And Catherine in the background would be inventing an airplane. You know, so if anybody wants that idea, I think it'd be really fun. You can have it for free. Yeah, just credit me for it also. So right before Sarla is born, in 1912, when I was just, like, skimming the history of flight this morning, in 1912, the US army was skeptical about planes at all because they, quote, had a tendency to nose dive, which made me laugh. I was like, oh, yeah, no, that definitely sounds like not a good thing. I don't want to do that. But flying is new, and, God, flying is so freaking new at all. You know, I would not have gone.
>> Farz: On a plane back then.
>> Taylor: I mean, I don't even know. Like, hard to get on a plane right now.
>> Farz: It's true.
There are a few women who are getting their pilot's licenses in India
>> Taylor: But anyway, we are in India, and there are a few women who are getting their pilot's licenses. There is Irmala Parky, and she is the first woman of Indian nationality to get a license in 1932. And then Scylla and Rodeva Tata, they're sisters of. They're part of a famous family like the Tata family that is like a. It sounds like there's like, a really interesting Indian family that I didn't get into, but they really also got. What do you mean?
>> Farz: From the Tata family?
>> Taylor: Yeah. What is that?
>> Farz: It's like the biggest industrial family, like, in the world. They're like, they own everything.
>> Taylor: Well, then, yes, two of the sisters of the Tata family got their flying licenses in the 1930s as well, but they're of British national nationality. And Sarla, who we're talking about, is the first woman of Indian nationality to get her pilot's license. So When Sarla was 16 years old, she married a man named P.D. sharma and moved to the Lahore region of India, which is going to be a part of Pakistan when they divide to be with him. And being married young was obviously super common, and she was expected to stay home and take care of her family. That was just like the expectations of women in her time and of her age. And any education after marriage was almost impossible. It just wasn't something that that was done. But PD Sharma and his family were full of people who were very, very encouraging. All of his family were pilots. There were nine pilots in his family and he noticed her interest in it. And her husband and her father in law signed her up for the Lahore Flying Club and got her to, to learn how to fly, which is super cool because it's an extremely patriarchal time to be alive and the society is extremely patriarchal. And they really encouraged her to learn how to fly. So she started to fly with her husband. He had a postal route from Karachi to Lahore. He was the first Indian person to have an air mail license. It's about a 1,000 mile route that goes between those two cities. And again, it reminds me when we were learning about Amelia Earhart how like being a airmail person in the United States was like the most dangerous job you could have.
>> Farz: Sure, I would believe that.
>> Taylor: Yeah. When Sa was 21, she got her license also and flew solo. So she had only like eight hours of training before she went up by herself. Which is like probably not something you could do anymore. But she was like, now I got it. After eight hours she's like, cool, cool, cool. I got it. Her, her plane was a gypsy moth, which is a two seat touring and training aircraft. So it looks like just like you would expect. It's just like a, you know, one of those little planes where like there's double wings.
>> Farz: Yeah.
>> Taylor: Like you kind of want to get out on the wing and like do a trick. I mean I would never do that, but like people did that. Know what I mean?
>> Farz: Very risky people. I think they're actually. I think that's what wing walking was, is you just balance yourself between those two wings.
>> Taylor: I hate it.
>> Farz: Yeah, not for us.
>> Taylor: It's a hard. No, no, not for us. We've ruled that out. So she, there's the one pic of her as a pilot you can find online. She's standing in front of her plane and it's so cool because she's wearing a sari and so she's just like, you know, wearing very like her traditional Indian woman's outfit, but she has her like little leather cap on and her goggles and she's, you know, a pilot. So she did her, her 1000 hours of flight time at the Lahore Club and she earned her aviation a license, which is a private pilot license in 1936. So she was, you know, she was young, she had a four year old daughter. It was really cool that she like was able to go up there. One of the newspapers at the time said, quote, the skies are no longer exclusive to men. So like how important it was that she was up there.
India has the most women commercial pilots of any country
And this I thought was super interesting. This continues and I don't know, you know, why exactly, but according to the Directorate General for Civil aviation, there are 1622 commercial pilots certified in India and 18% of them are women, which is 292 of that number. That is twice the global average. So India has the most women commercial pilots of any country and they always have had had a lot more than others.
>> Farz: But is the population of India heavily weighted towards female versus men?
>> Taylor: I don't think so, no.
>> Farz: Well then I have no answers. That's all I got.
>> Taylor: Yeah. Which is interesting. So Sarala also wants to be a commercial pilot. She wants to get her B license and do that and she begins training, but unfortunately her husband dies in a plane crash, which it's a bummer in 1939, which you would think put you.
>> Farz: Off on flying, but I guess.
>> Taylor: Yeah. Well, so then she is like, okay, well I need to make a living. And she gets a. Tries to go to more training. So she joins the Jodhpur Flying Club to train for a license. But it's 1930, 1940 by now, and World War II is starting. And so they're like, we're not training anyone who is not going to be a part of the war. And she was not going to be a part of the war because she has a woman that was like a hard no. So she had to pivot and do something else. So remember that that was 1940, when she was like about to get her commercial license but then didn't. So. Oh, this is the reference I wanted to tell you for reference. The. The first woman in India to get commercial pilots pilot's license wouldn't be until 1947. So seven years after the war, they started doing it again, but by that time Sarla had pivoted to another career. So also.
Sala became a fashion designer after India was granted independence in 1948
So this is where we do the pivot. Like her second. Her second thing at life, which I always makes me laugh because when I was in my like 20s, somehow I got subscribed to a magazine called More and it was all about women's second acts. Like, what do you do after, like your kids are grown and what like second job can you have? You know, and it was just hilarious. I was like, who sent this to me? I'm 25, you know, it's like, I've definitely not completed a first act. I don't know what you're talking about. But she. But Sarla decided to pivot something else and she became an artist, which also. I'm sorry, this is an obscure thing, but have you seen The Royal Tenenbaums.
>> Farz: No.
>> Taylor: Okay. It's one of my favorite movies ever. And in it, the mom, Etheline Tenenbaum, she becomes an archaeologist. And that's all they say. It's just like, Etheline became an archaeologist, and then she's, like, on a dig site. And it just makes you laugh so hard every time. I love it. I'm like. Like, it's easy, you know?
>> Farz: Yeah. Well, I mean, again, going back to my theory, it was probably easier back then.
>> Taylor: Yeah. If you're. Because there's no regulations, I think.
>> Farz: Right.
>> Taylor: So in the 1940s, she returned to Lahore and enrolled in the Mayo School of Art, and she trained in painting and earned a diploma in fine arts. So remember, like I said, it was really difficult for women to even get an education, especially later in life. And so she's able to do that. She. She designed costume jewelry and saris and a bunch of block printing. So Sarla was a Hindu. And when India was granted independence in the great Partition is when India and Pakistan separated. And so she was no longer welcome in the Pakistan part because of her religion. And there were things that, like, her neighbors would be warned her if people were coming because people trying to kick her out of the country because of her religion. And so she ended up fleeing on a train with her daughter, leaving behind most of the stuff that she owned and the business that she had started, you know, designing clothes and designing jewelry in Pakistan and went back to India. She worked on her fashion business for 15 years. And, like, very famous people in India wore her stuff. One of them is Viha Lakshmi Pandit, who was a diplomat, who. That is.
>> Farz: Oh, you know what I was thinking about the Jonas Brother's wife, who's an actress and. Never mind. Never mind. Described. I'm gonna stop interjecting.
>> Taylor: No, this is like the 50s. So, like, she was the sister of the prime Minister of India. So just, like, people were in there, you know, like, wearing her designs, and she's, like, a very famous fashion designer, which is so cool, because I feel like a fashion designer and a pilot are both occupations that you want to have when you're, like, a little girl, you know? Very cool. And remember, also, Amelia Earhart was a fashion designer, too.
>> Farz: Yeah.
>> Taylor: She designed, like, some of those cute things. So in 1948, Sarla married a man named R.P. thackral. That's where she lost him. We know her by. Which is also really interesting. So it's like another barrier that she broke, because usually in the Hindu religion, you. It discourages remarriage. The idea being like, you know, you get married for eternity, so you can't marry someone else on, you know, this. This human plane. But she followed a offshoot, a reform offshoot of Hinduism called Arya Samjas, which allowed her to remarry. So she was able to remarry and kind of lived happily ever after with. With her second husband in her 80s. She said, I have a couple fun quotes for her. She said, quote, every morning I wake up and chart out my plans. If there is plenty of work, I feel very happy. Otherwise, I feel a precious day has been wasted. And, like, good for her, because I feel like I waste a lot of days.
>> Farz: Amen to. I look forward to the days I can waste.
>> Taylor: I know. For real, I'm like. Like, today I was like, I'm gonna do nothing. Cool. Scarlett died at the age of 93 in 2008. In one of her last interviews, she said, quote, always be happy. This one motto has seen me tide over the crises in my life, which is very nice. So I just. That's. That's really it.
I just thought it was a fun little thing
But I just thought it was a fun little thing and stuff that I don't know a lot about Indian history, and it's so cool that as a woman, she was able to do that, considering the, you know, the year and the culture and all of the, you know, different things are happening there, like, you know, World War II, into the independence, into all those things.
>> Farz: So, yeah, I mean, let's also not forget that India has a caste system that I covered at one point.
>> Taylor: Right.
>> Farz: Where, like, there's people who are, like, dirty, untouchable. Like, they're not that progressive.
>> Taylor: Like. No, definitely. Definitely.
>> Farz: Yeah. So obviously, she was probably from some. Yeah, I mean, we heard it. She's from some higher echelons. But, yeah, very, very interesting. You know, there's a. So much of those world history things where we think we're the center of it in the US and there's other places that have other things that are similar.
>> Taylor: Yeah, I think that's exactly the point that I was trying to get to. Like, you know, there's someone. There's a first of all sorts of things. And it's not like just because Amelia Earhart did it, you know, and there's women in America, doesn't mean, like, that opens the door for women everywhere, and, like, vice versa, all sorts of things. So someone's gotta be the first to do it in all these places. And it's cool when someone says, you know what? I'm gonna do this thing that isn't just difficult for me because of my, like, you know, gender or whatever. It's like, actually a hard thing that's, like, potentially very dangerous, you know, very brave considering, you know, all the things speaking, which.
Taylor: Airline pilots are disincentivized from discussing mental health issues
>> Farz: Taylor, did you listen to the Daily from this weekend?
>> Taylor: No.
>> Farz: Okay. They were covering how mental health and airline pilots kind of come together and how they're so disincentivized from ever bringing up their mental health issues. As a result, you end up with, like, potentially pilots who actually have issues, but they can never talk about it. Because they talk about it, they get grounded, they don't get paid, they don't have a job, they lose their careers. It was actually really terrifying.
>> Taylor: That is terrifying. That's a terrible catch 22 to be in for everyone.
>> Farz: Yeah. Yeah. Which I'm actually going to touch on quite a bit around mental health stuff in my episode. So stay tuned to learn more about that. If you are interested in the topic, which you will be, because it's fun. I make it fun.
>> Taylor: Great. Yeah, no, that. That's it. Just a short little one to. To tie up our Women's History Month. Thank you everybody who listened to those episodes. And I will kind of put them all together in our March newsletter and share that for everyone, too.
>> Farz: Lovely.
Morgan: Thank you, Morgan, for being our first Patreon member
Is there any letters, notes, comments from folks that we want to talk about?
>> Taylor: No, but I wanted to tell you something.
>> Farz: Ooh. Okay.
>> Taylor: I'm in. I'm in. I'm on vacation, like I mentioned, and driving home, I just saw a car that had a bumper sticker that said Buddha, Judge Cheney 2028. Which is when I was like, oh, gosh, I can't. I was like, well, I hadn't thought of that, so. Great.
>> Farz: Yeah. It's funny, I think I mentioned this. I mentioned this, like, a while ago, and then I just heard it again on one of Bill Maher's episodes where he was like, there's a point when you go so far left that you end up right. Yes, I think we're on that timeline.
>> Taylor: I was like, oh, God, I think we're getting there. What a time to be alive.
>> Farz: What a time to be alive.
>> Taylor: Yeah, that's so. Yeah, that's it. Thank you, Morgan, for being our first Patreon member. We appreciate you. And no, thank you to far as in mind partners, for not joining our Patreon yet.
>> Farz: We're not naming names, but they know.
>> Taylor: We'Re in relationships with.
>> Farz: But they know who they are. They know what they're doing wrong. So just calling it out.
>> Taylor: Just FYI, no pressure. If you want to join our Patreon, you can find us patreon.com, but also everywhere. Doomed to fail Pod, please, you know, send us your ideas next week. I have a really fun one. You know, I'm also in this, like, really weird thing is happening where, like, I don't know, hopefully people are just reading a lot because every book that I want from the library is not available. So I'm on, like, a wait list for, like, 15 topics. I know they're all gonna come the same day, and I'm gonna be like, great. I can't read 15 books.
>> Farz: Can you also just rent the ebooks from the library?
>> Taylor: Oh, no, that's what I mean. I'm in line to rent the audiobooks.
>> Farz: Oh. Oh, okay.
>> Taylor: Interesting. Yeah, yeah, there's like, a certain, like, the.
>> Farz: I think, number of licenses.
>> Taylor: Yeah, exactly. So it's like, it says, like, about this number of weeks, but then that's always just a guess because some people could be like, I'll read it. I read it in a day, or it takes me a long time, or whatever, so we'll see. But I'm kind of doing them as they come in. But I read a really fun book last week for next week's episode, so I'm excited to get into that one.
>> Farz: I'm also going to be referencing a book in mine, so lots in common. No, I didn't read it, but I've listened to probably 25 hours of the authors talking about it on podcast to where I've internalized it to the point where I think I have read it. So, yes, I've read it.
>> Taylor: Funny, that is way more than the actual book itself.
>> Farz: Yeah, yeah. I mean, literally, I'm just searching out this author and finding all their content and consuming it. So.
>> Taylor: All right, well, let's go over there and do that.
>> Farz: We'll go over there and do that, and we'll go in and cut this off.