Consider, of course, the definition of 'doomed.' In 1846, several families left the Midwest in pursuit of the California Dream. Eventually, George Donner would be named their leader, and they would follow the Hastings Cutoff for a quick shortcut west. The rest is history. Of the 87 travelers, 48 will survive, mostly women & children. All will encounter incredible hunger, fear, and destitution before they reach California. Join us as we tell the stories of these families who risked everything for a better life. (There is also cannibalism, don't worry.)
Consider, of course, the definition of 'doomed.' In 1846, several families left the Midwest in pursuit of the California Dream. Eventually, George Donner would be named their leader, and they would follow the Hastings Cutoff for a quick shortcut west. The rest is history.
Of the 87 travelers, 48 will survive, mostly women & children. All will encounter incredible hunger, fear, and destitution before they reach California. Join us as we tell the stories of these families who risked everything for a better life.
(There is also cannibalism, don't worry.)
Hi Friends! Our transcripts aren't perfect, but I wanted to make sure you had something - if you'd like an edited transcript, I'd be happy to prioritize one for you - please email doomedtofailpod@gmail.com - Thanks! - Taylor
Taylor: How's your Mother's Day going? It is good
>> Taylor: In the matter of the people of State of California vs. Orenthal James Simpson, case number BA097. And so, my fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you.
>> Farz: Taylor, we are recording and I wanted to wish you, while we're recording, a happy Mother's Day.
>> Taylor: Thank you.
>> Farz: How's your Mother's Day going?
>> Taylor: It is good. I, like, woke up and I was like, okay, well, I'm not getting up until they come and get me. And then they brought me a very nice breakfast and it was very fun.
>> Farz: Was it like the Beethoven breakfast where there was a bunch of shell eggs of eggshells inside of it?
>> Taylor: No, they did a really good job. It was very delicious. And then, yeah, Miles definitely, like, jumped on the bed and, like, tried to move it around and then everybody had to eat in the room and then it was the whole thing. But it was very cute.
>> Farz: The pylon mom morning.
>> Taylor: Yeah.
>> Farz: Very cool. Very cool. Well, hope it's going to be a good one for the rest of the evening. We can go in and dive in if you want to introduce us.
Doomed to Fail brings you history's most notorious disasters and greatest failures
>> Taylor: Let's do it. Hi, everyone. Happy Mother's Day. Welcome to Doomed to Fail. We bring you history's most notorious disasters and greatest failures twice a week. I'm Taylor, joined by Fars, and we.
>> Farz: Are going to be covering something fun probably today, at least on my side. I don't know if you're just going to be more doomsy or funsy.
>> Taylor: It's doomsy, but it's funsy.
>> Farz: Who's going first today?
>> Taylor: I believe that it is you.
>> Farz: Ah, okay. Well, then I think you did.
>> Taylor: I think you did. It doesn't matter. But I do think that last week we re released because we were tired. Fine.
>> Farz: We deserve it.
>> Taylor: Yeah. And let's see. Oh, no, I did the. I guess I can go first. I should go first.
>> Farz: Cool.
>> Taylor: Is that cool?
>> Farz: Yeah, of course.
>> Taylor: Okay. Because I did the. I did James Murray and Dr. Minor Glass.
>> Farz: Yep, yep, you're right. Cool.
Daniel: This one was suggested by our friend Justin
>> Taylor: Okay. So mine is loading. It is an oldie but a goodie. And this one was suggested by our friend Justin, who we don't know in real life, but who had emailed about also not necessarily wanting a dog. So, Justin, I see you. I hear you. And Justin asked if we could cover the Donner Party, and I said, h*** yeah, we can.
>> Farz: That is a very fun topic.
>> Taylor: Yes. And very, very doomed.
>> Farz: So both the most doomed.
>> Taylor: Yeah. So I obviously re listened to the last podcast on the Left series. I think it's two episodes. It's good And I reread because I read the book that they referenced after they did their show because they really couldn't recommend it. More by David. Daniel. I'm sorry, Daniel. James Brown called the Indifferent Stars above, which. Which is like a full account of the whole thing. So pick that up.
>> Farz: That is, if you ever want to get into Last podcast. I would say the Donner Party episodes are probably their best episode. That's the one I listen. We listened to the most.
>> Taylor: Yeah, I liked a lot. Oh, good. So we'll, you know. You'll know what's going on.
>> Farz: Yep.
Florence did Oregon Trail on paper when she was in elementary school
>> Taylor: So we are on the Oregon Trail, which kids still do. Florence was doing Oregon Trail. S***, like, yesterday in school. And I remember doing the Oregon Trail on paper because, I don't know, it was the early 90s, but I think it was, like, available on the computer. But we also had a way to play it on paper. Do you remember that?
>> Farz: No, we never did paper. That was part of our. When we were in elementary school, we had computer lab, and that was part of our learning how computers work, which is, like, kind of bad.
>> Taylor: Educating kids, I mean, they didn't really do much. I don't know.
>> Farz: Okay, fair enough. That was probably the most you could do with the computer at that time.
>> Taylor: Yeah, I remember, like, you had got to work on your manifest and mine. I was just, like, adding twine to it because twine didn't weigh anything.
>> Farz: Yeah, it was awesome.
>> Taylor: You could be like, should I bring my piano? I don't know. So I guess for anyone not in America, every American child plays an Oregon Trail where you have to get your family across the mountains to Oregon or California safely, and they, like, throw all this stuff at you, like, starvation, bears, no water, snow.
>> Farz: It is deceptively fun.
>> Taylor: Yeah. Yeah. It is a. It is a rite of passage for the American child. And it is fun, which, if they.
>> Farz: Were to come out with, like, a new one for, like, Xbox, I would totally do it.
>> Taylor: I wonder if they. I wonder if they have. We just don't know.
>> Farz: Yeah, that's very, very likely.
In 1801, people started to go on honeymoons in Niagara Falls
>> Taylor: Anyway, we are in 1846, and we are to start off in Illinois. But let me give you some context based on some of the other topics that we've covered. So in 1801, people started to go on honeymoons in Niagara Falls. So this is, like, the first time people started having honeymoons. And I forgot about this, but the first person to go on a honeymoon in Niagara Falls was Theodosia Burr, who was Aaron Burr's daughter. And I always think that's Interesting. And we'll talk about honeymoon in a second. That's why I bring it up. The alamo fell in 1836. The Opium wars started in 1839. The Terror and the Erebus, the ships that set off in the Arctic started off in 1845. The Long Walk of the Navajo by Kit Carson will be in 1864. And James Murray will start working on the dictionary in 1870. That was my last one. So we're kind of in the middle of all this, but there's stuff happening obviously all over the world that we've talked about before. So the American people want to go west for adventure, for opportunity. Do you remember? I think this is like a little bit before this, but Jim Birth movie Far and Away with Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman.
>> Farz: Nope.
>> Taylor: So it's like I remember watching it in school in German class for absolutely no reason because it's about Irish immigrants, but they are like Irish immigrants in New York. It's a little bit later. I think it's like supposed to be like 1870 ish. But people, they go to Oklahoma to get land and the government is like, there's all this land. You can like pick a plot and they have like a run for the land where you. They literally have like your guys on a horse and he's going to run and try to like get the stake to get the land. So it was like when you cl. Did it claim to stake or stake to claim, you literally like put your stake in the claim of lands that this is mine.
>> Farz: And fun fact, that is the reason why the Oklahoma University or University of Oklahoma called ou. Their team is called the Sooners because it was named after a bunch of settlers who went before the shot clock was announced to when you can go.
>> Taylor: Exactly. That's what happens in Far and Away as well. So there's like that happening. People are excited to like, you know, expand. Expand their living space of the people that we. Oh also like land isn't like available. People live there, but you know.
>> Farz: Right.
>> Taylor: You know, we know of the people we meet 87 people of the diner party signed up to go together. They will get stuck in the Sierra Nevadas like the beer on Truckee Lake, which is now called Donner Lake.
>> Farz: Yep.
>> Taylor: So I have a joke that is like a family inside joke. So my brother went to unr University of Nevada Reno, which is right where this is. And his. Him and his friends would go tubing on the river. And one time like they were tubing all day long and they had like a cooler Beer. And they were, like, laying on these things and having a great time. And his friend Leah, like, kind of looked up and was like, where? Where are we? And this, like, woman was like, on a canoe going by and she goes, you're on the Truckee River. And so we say that all the time because it gets so funny, because they're like, of course they're on the river. They knew that. But she was like, where on the river are we? Anyway? So I also go, that Truckee River. So of the 87 people, 48 survived and mostly women survived, which is a note, maybe because women need less calories to survive. But this is also in, like, a turning point in humanity where women don't die all the time during childbirth. So like, now, statistically, women live longer than men due to, like, lifestyle usually, you know, kind of things. But before, like, the 18, mid-1800s, late 1800s, you know, women died all the time.
>> Farz: They also live longer than men because y' all get to stay on the life rafts. We've been over this.
>> Taylor: It doesn't happen often enough for that to be statistically relevant. It does not. No. So one way to get there is, like, on the Oregon Trail from Independence, Missouri. And there is a well laid path, and then there's the Hastings Cutoff, which is new, which we'll get to. But that's what's going to happen. So that's going to happen. But I'll tell you how we get there.
So first, let's meet Lansford Hastings. He wants to lead people into California
So first, let's meet Lansford Hastings. He is not great. He was born in 1819 in Ohio, and he wants to be Emperor of California, which is not a job, but he would like to have it if it were to become available.
>> Farz: Yeah, this is all coming back to me.
>> Taylor: Yeah. So he is a man who wants people to come to California. He wants to lead people into California, he wants to be an explorer, all of these things. So he writes a book called the Emigrants Guide to Oregon and California. And in it he writes, quote, the most direct path would be leave the Oregon route about 200 miles east of Fort hall, then sparing west southwest to the Salt Lake, and thence continuing down to the Bay of San Francisco. End quote. Which is not true because almost impossible to do that. There's huge mountains, huge cliffs, and then a huge salt desert. And Hastings had never done it. He told people you could do it, but he was, like, making it up. He had never done it.
>> Farz: Okay, one thing I'll call out is, this is still like a modern problem. And I'm gonna go down A little bit of a soapbox here, because every time I go to this one restaurant in Austin, there's a very obvious way to get there.
>> Taylor: And.
>> Farz: And for some reason, if I put it in Google Maps, it routes me into these neighborhoods where then I have to cross the busiest intersection. That's like six lanes of traffic. Whereas I could have just taken, like, a protected left at a red light.
>> Taylor: Do you remember when you had that Uber driver that wouldn't take left?
>> Farz: That person was crazy. Okay, quick story. So for. For anybody, I was in la, and at the time, I guess it was my fiance at the time we called an Uber, take us to work. And then we get in the car and the person was like, we're like, oh, just go up here and take a left. Because I was like, just drop her off at her place and then take me to work. And we get to this intersection, Hollywood Boulevard, a super busy intersection. And the person says, I don't take lefts, I don't take left turns. I'm like, oh, this is going to be crazy. And they just accelerated blindly into the intersection and just popped a left. And then, and then we got to, like, her place. And I was like, we're done. Thank you.
>> Taylor: I'm gonna get out. I'm all set. I'll walk from here. So funny.
>> Farz: And I never try to take anybody's livelihood away, but that person, I made a point to not stop until I got a response from Uber. Like, you have to, yeah, ban that person.
>> Taylor: That's not safe.
>> Farz: That's not safe. Yeah.
>> Taylor: Oh, my God. So funny. But yes, yes, there's often. There are many routes to get places, but sometimes a shortcut or like a weird one is not great. So the Donner party, especially James Reed, who will meet, really believed this. They believed Hastings. And also again, when Hastings says California, California is. Is Mexico. And so they are illegal immigrants into Mexico, walking over the Sierra Nevadas. So is that true?
>> Farz: I thought it was.
>> Taylor: Yeah.
>> Farz: I thought it was native land. I don't think it was Mexico.
>> Taylor: It is Mexico. California is going to become a republic in the middle of this.
>> Farz: Okay. Okay.
>> Taylor: Yeah. So. And the Mexican American War is going to be, like, at the end of this saga, slash, going to go on for another, however many years after this. Anyway, so Hastings. Oh, to do. To do this, to get people to come to California and, like, be a thing. He wanted to, like, get a bunch of land in California. He killed a bunch of Native Americans. He's just not a good guy. Later, Hastings is going to be a colonel in the Confederate army and he's so mad that they lose that he tries to do a thing, which is a whole thing that I did not even read read into where they tried to get Confederate families to leave the south and go to Brazil and start colonies in Brazil. And so he writes the Immigrants Guide to Brazil in 1867 and he's ready to like do that again. But he dies of yellow fever in the Virgin Islands before he gets there. So that's Lanceford Hastings, kind of a charlatan.
>> Farz: So he. You said again, he never actually did the path.
>> Taylor: No, he's going to try to do it later. But he tries to do it much after his book has already been published. People have been reading it and like trying to do it, you know.
>> Farz: Yep, yep, got it.
>> Taylor: So our party, the Donner Party themselves are a bunch of Americans who've been like in America, I guess for like 200 years. Some of them have like, were in like, they're. What was I going to say? They're children of the revolution. Like their, their dads were in the American Revolution. And some, there are also some German immigrants and then a couple native folks who are joining as well. So they're going to eventually be called the Donner Party. But a lot of it starts with a man named James Reed.
Most of the people on this trip are kids, which is terrible
So let's start with the Reed family and I'm going to read you a lot of names, but I just wanted to bring it out now that like also most of the people on this trip are kids.
>> Farz: Yeah, yeah.
>> Taylor: You know, literal infants in some cases, which is terrible.
>> Farz: If I recall correctly. This family's cursed.
>> Taylor: Yes, well, actually none of the Reeds die.
>> Farz: It's not going to be, oh, that's right.
>> Taylor: But the entire Reed family makes it so. James Fraser reed, he's only 45, he's a wealthy businessman from Illinois. And in everything that I was reading would make you think he was like a gnarled 65 year old man. But he's 45. But he is, he has like lived a pretty interesting life. He was in the Black Hawk wars in the same battalion as Abraham Lincoln, which was a war led by a person named Black Hawk, who was a leader of the Sauk Indians, which also I wanted to learn more about as well. And then his wife Margaret was 32. They had. I'm going to again read a bunch of names, but Virginia, Martha, James and Thomas were their kids. Also Margaret's mother, Sarah Keys came, she was 70. And there's also a bunch of people who are like hired help. They're like servants. They're tradesmen. They're people who are coming to help with the trip. So there's Eliza, Bayless, Milt, Walter, James and Hiram, all with them. So another strong indicator of survival in situations like this. So, like, I imagine even like in the Titanic, this would also be something that would be a thing, is you're more likely to survive if you're in a family rather than in a single man. So a lot of the single men, they. You know, when it came down to it, like, if I have a little bit of food, like, I'm going to feed my family first, you know, of course. And look out for your family first. So the single men, like, they banded together in some cases, but in some cases, they were, like, really, really alone in this whole thing. So the Donner family, which is George and Jacob Donner, their brothers. George is 60. He's a farmer from Illinois. He is elected the leader in a little bit. His wife's name is Tamzin. She's 45 years old. It's his second marriage. So he has Elitha and Leanna from his first marriage. And they have three other kids, Francis, Georgia and Eliza. Then Jacob Donner, the brother is 56. He's with his wife Elizabeth, and their kids, Solomon, William, George, Mary, Isaac, Samuel, and Lewis. Lewis is only three. So, like, right now, the youngest kids are three, but there's even kids are younger than this. The Donner's employees are Noah, Samuel, John, John Baptiste Trudeau and Luke Halloran. So just people who are with them. Luke Halloran actually was, like, on his own separate trip, and he got tuberculosis, and they picked him up and took him just to be nice. So that was nice of them. There's a Breen family, Patrick Breen and his wife Peggy. Their kids are John, Edward, Patrick, Simon, James, Peter, and Isabella, who is only one when they start. She's 11 months old. And then they have a friend named Patrick Dolan. And then also there's a man named James Clyman who is there as well. Kleiman, to note, had seen George Washington in person, which I think is fun. Yeah. There's a Graves family. Franklin, his wife Elizabeth, their kids, Sarah. Sarah is the daughter of Franklin and Elizabeth. She's 22. She was newly married to a guy named Jay, and she's the subject of the book, the Indifferent Stars Above. He tries to follow, like, her actual journey and, like, figure out, like, what happened to her afterwards. But basically, her backstory and everyone's backstory is, like, they wanted a different life. They wanted More space. They wanted to get out of, like, where they were in Illinois. They were really sick in Illinois. They had something called the Illinois shakes, which is probably just malaria from mosquitoes. But everybody was sick. They just wanted, like, something else. But they've already been through a lot living there. I mentioned the honeymoon earlier because this is like kind of her and Jay's honeymoon. They get to go on a trip with their family, which is what a honeymoon was for a very long time. It was like a party, a trip you to go on to be able to see your family that couldn't make it to the wedding, you know, so it was like, you know, an adventure. And they're excited with them. The other siblings are Mary, William, Eleanor, Lavina, Nancy, Jonathan, Franklin and Elizabeth, who's also just one years old. And then another single man that joins them is John's. John Snyder. He's 25. He joins them to be a teamster. And I'll talk about him later. But John Snyder is the hot guy. So there's like one hot guy on this trip, and it's John Snyder.
>> Farz: I can believe that. Every group has one.
>> Taylor: Yeah. There is the Murphy family. There's poor, poor Lavinia, whose fate is also, like. Everyone's very terrible, but she's 37 years old. When people find her at the end of this, they think she's like in her 50s because she's just like. She's a skeleton. She looks terrible. She does not get out. She looks awful. Their kids are John, Mary, Lemuel, William, Simon. And then they have a daughter, Sarah, who has her husband. And then another daughter, Harriet, who also has her kids, who are Naomi and Catherine, who's also one. So, so many people that are there. The Eddy family is William Eddy, his wife Eleanor. Their two kids, James and Margaret, 3 and 1. And the Kasselberg family.
There are mostly kids on this show, but there are some single men
They're German immigrants. There's Louis, Elizabeth, Julianne, another Louis, an infant. And then they have two people named Charles Berger. And then like an old. An elderly Belgian man just named Hardcoop, who sounds fun, but he's seen a bunch. And then there's the wolfinger party, the McCutcheon family, and some more single men. So just a bunch of families, handful of single men, but like, mostly kids on this. So there's also some people who are going to go like, in. They're not always together from the very beginning. They like add new wagons. People leave all those things. There's two men we'll meet at the very end named Louis and Salvador. They were to Miwoke Native Americans, and they joined to try to guide them out at one point, so they'll be there later. But. So that's everybody.
First you have to pack your wagon with everything that you own
And then here are the plans. So first you have to pack your wagon with everything that you own. Have you ever seen a covered wagon to get the size in your head?
>> Farz: Yeah, I can.
>> Taylor: I can visualize it because it was bigger. I saw one at a museum in San Bernardo, and it was a lot bigger than I thought it was going to be.
>> Farz: They're very tall. They're much smaller than I thought they would be.
>> Taylor: Yeah. So, like, the vision I had before I saw a real one was smaller than they actually are. So they're pretty big and they're heavy. So it's good and bad because you can take your stuff, but also, like, you have to go over river. So there's times where they're, like, having a week delay because they have to build a bridge and bring, like, 30 wagons over a river that, like, no one's built a bridge on before. So that takes forever. And they're pulled by, like, oxen, and it goes really, really slowly. But let's pretend that we're in a family of five, and we need stuff for four to six months. We don't know how long it's going to take. We have. We're going to be on this walk for four to six months. And you're not riding in the wagon. You're walking next to the wagon. Oh, yeah, by the way. So typical wagon supplies, you would bring your wagon, obviously, and your animals. So you have your wagons, like 10 to 12ft long, 4 to 6ft wide. There's a cover. It can carry like 2,000 to 2,500 pounds of stuff. Again, most of them were pulled by. By. By oxen. They were slower than horses, but, like, could take more. So that's why you would use an ox rather than a horse. And also you'd bring, like, cows and horses. You'd also bring food. So per adult, you would need, like, almost 200 pounds of flour, 20 pounds of cornmeal, 150 pounds of bacon, 40 pounds of sugar, 10 pounds of coffee. And the coffee was not, like ground you had. They were like green coffee beans. You had to, like, roast them and then make yourself coffee. And then so, like, all this food, you. Which is like, I mean, imagine heavy and also takes up a lot of space, you know, plus you have to, like, make stuff out of it after that, it's like a lot of work. So they had cows that could get milk from their Cows. They could also put the milk from the cows in a barrel and have it just in the, in the wagon and it would turn itself into butter from all, which is nice. So there's that. You also like could hunt probably, but in some places you weren't going to be able to and you had to like plan for that.
>> Farz: Right.
>> Taylor: As long as you could hunt, you would, you would have clothes, but only like two changes of clothes per person for a six month walk. It's gonna get gross.
>> Farz: Yeah.
>> Taylor: Real fast. You would have some soap. 25 pounds of soap would be like the suggestion for your family, which seems like a lot of soap, but it's for you, it's for the clothes. You'd also have to like bring tools and stuff for starting your life. So you bring farming tools. Because you were going to start a farm in California, so you had to like bring all that with you. you would have like a, A lot of some pots and pans that were pretty heavy. Like a Dutch oven. I have a Dutch oven. It's heavy. but you could like, you know, use that to bake bread, to make stews. You also need stuff to like start a fire. You need water. So whenever you are near clean water, you put it in a barrel and save it. But like that water is going to go bad and be full of grossness anyway.
>> Farz: And it's gonna be happy.
>> Taylor: Yeah. Very heavy. And then you also might bring some stuff that's like, you'd bring your bible, you'd bring candles, you'd bring toys for the kids, maybe like a clock. I do remember in my Oregon Trail manifest they were like, do you want to bring your piano?
>> Farz: That's ridiculous.
>> Taylor: No, the answer is obviously, but I get it. In some cases people would like just have to abandon stuff on the side of the road as their oxen got more tired. And then sometimes they would bury it, hoping to come back and get it later, things like that. But a lot of most of the stuff that people brought didn't make it all the way, especially for the dinner party. But also for a lot of people, they get rid of stuff. So the reeds though somehow had a two story wagon, which like sounds insane. So they made it so that like the inside was like a box. You entered it through the middle. And then the second story was where you would like sit. And then there would be. There are beds on the second story as well.
>> Farz: It feels like it'll be, oh, like a pain for that oxen to pull stuff like something like that.
>> Taylor: Exactly. That's not gonna last forever. But, like, it also seems like very luxurious and nice to be able to have it. So, okay, you have your stuff, we have our people. And the thing to remember is that you need to leave early. Like, you need to leave by April 1st to be able to get up mountains before there's too much snow. And that's on like the regular Oregon Trail that everybody knows about. So, you know stuff is going to happen that's going to delay you anyway. So, like, you need to plan for delays to happen.
Death industry came out of the Civil War after families were far away
So the additional group leaves Springfield, Illinois on April 11th, and they start walking west on the 23rd. John Snyder joins. He's handsome and carefree again. He's the hot guy, so he's fun to have around. He dances, he's cute, he's like full of life. You know, he's there. And again, they're like meeting people and leaving people along the way. Like last podcast described it as like an accordion. So you're not like in a line. You know, like one family might go ahead a couple hours and you come up together, then you circle up your wagons, then you move on for the next day. So you're not always together. Downers in the reeds leave independence, Missouri on May 12, and they meet others on the road. They have a four day delay because Sarah Keys, who's 70 years old, dies and like, that's expected. But they have to bury her and all that. So I have a whole bunch of cultural notes and the first one is about death. So this is when you still care for your dead bodies. So the reason it takes four days to have Syracuse's funeral is because they have a funeral for her. They, like get a box and wash her body and put her in nice clothes and bury her and mourn for a day and like, do all these things. So right now in America especially, it's called the death industry. And it's like a billion dollar industry, obviously. So it costs a lot of money to die, to have a funeral, to go to a funeral parlor, to get a coffin, to get a plot. All those things are expensive. And the death industry came out of the Civil War because before the Civil War, you would do it by yourselves. So if you died, you know, your family would, you know, wash your body, dress your body. You'd sit in the living room for a couple days to make sure you were really dead. If they had ice, they'd put ice underneath you, hoping for the best. And then they would bury you like in the backyard.
>> Farz: And that was glad the death industry exists.
>> Taylor: Well, I don't love it. I mean, I would rather be buried in a backyard than, like, embalmed and buried in, like, a. I don't want.
>> Farz: To be washing my body.
>> Taylor: Well, I mean, it's like. I also read. I think I said this before, but I've read a book called smoke is in your eye. It's by Cathedral Caitlin Dottie, the woman who is a mortician. And it, like, helped people understand death more if you were, like, near it, you know, Anyway, I guess. And I don't want to do any of these things.
>> Farz: I don't want to be around it.
>> Taylor: But after the Civil War. During the Civil War, you wanted to, like, you know, see your dad, but they were far away. So that's when they started embalming people. And it started to be a job to move dead bodies around. So that started to be, like, what we have now also on the road. Kids are going to die a lot. There's a lot of kids that die anyway. But there's all sorts of ways that kids died on the Oregon Trail. They drowned crossing the river. They just walked away into the. And were never found again. Because you can get lost so easily. And, like, the reeds are in the woods sometimes. They were captured by native tribes. They got bit by rattlesnakes. They got struck by lightning. They got kicked by horses. They got hit by hail. Guns would just go off all the time because it's not like a. There's a safety on them. So that could happen. They had food poisoning. 19 or 1846. This year is not the year there's cholera on the trail, but that will happen. There'll be a year when, like, half people die of cholera. Also, if your husband dies, you're f*****. Like, you need to have a man to take care of you and your family. If you don't have one, other families will, like, try to help you, but essentially, you have to try to manage it all by yourself. And sometimes they would just leave single women and their kids behind because they couldn't do it anymore. Yeah, it's worse because you need someone to, like, help you with the big things. There's a woman that was mentioned in the book who's not part of the Donner Party, but a woman named Polly Owen was left for dead with her kids, and someone picked her up and took her. And then later she went on to get married and have four sets of twins. That's just fun. But, like, how scary. They just leave you in the middle of nothing. Also, being a woman is terrible. Lots of gross things. Like, you know, you try not to get pregnant as best as you can, but, like, part of the reason you do that is, like, weird douches and, like, things and, like, weird sponges and everything smells terrible, and you always have a yeast infection, like, almost always. And then if you got pregnant, they didn't think. They didn't, like, acknowledge your pregnancy until the quickening, which is when you feel the baby, which is, like three months in. So before that, if they stopped getting their period and thought that maybe they were pregnant, they would do things like ride a horse and try to get rid of it. Try to, like, unblock their period, you know, but, like, they knew they were pregnant, but, like, you know, so they would, like, take poisons and, like, fun things like nightshade and foxglove that sound like the witch would give you to have an abortion. So all that's terrible. And then also, everyone is annoying because you're on this long trip with them.
>> Farz: It does sound kind of exhausting. I just got a family trip, and as much as I had fun with it, I was like, I want to be alone.
>> Taylor: Yeah, no, and you got to be alone, and you had food. You don't have to walk the entire time. There's a podcast I've listened to before called the History of the Crusades, and it's been around for a long time. It's on episode 329, but I remember in some of the beginning episodes talking about, like, the First Crusades. Like, even then, the kids on the road to Jerusalem were like, are we there yet? And that was, you know, thousands of years ago. So that's just a tale as old as time. Kids are going to be annoying. Everyone's going to be mad at each other. Some people aren't fighting, and that's the teens. That's because they're probably going to marry each other, which is true.
You need more food when you're walking all day, Daniel James Brown says
Like, if you're in a wagon train and you're going to a blank slate, you don't know what you're going to see when you get there. And there's, like, two people your age on the wagon train. Train. You're gonna find someone. Be like, I'm probably gonna marry them, you know?
>> Farz: Yeah.
>> Taylor: So they would sing and dance and fiddle, and John Snyder would dance, and it sounds like he and Marianne Graves were gonna get married. Like, they were, like, eyeing each other on the. On the road. And then I think my last. Well, no, another note. So many notes. Another note is, you need more food when you're walking all day. Obviously, like, you are constantly moving. So Daniel James Brown did a little bit of math, and like, Sarah Graves, who he followed in his book, was tall, maybe 5, 8, and probably weighed, like, 1 pounds. So she needed, like, 15, 1600 calories to maintain. If she did nothing, if she just, like, sat around all day because she's walking constantly, she needs, like, 3 to 4,000 calories, which is absolutely not getting. And, like, you need fat and you need salt. You need these things that get, like, harder and harder to get. So they're. They're getting very lean and skinny, like, very fast. Well, it should.
>> Farz: We should preface all this with the reason that's happening is because this trail that they chose to go on was dramatically more difficult and longer than they thought.
>> Taylor: They're not even on that trail yet. They're just.
>> Farz: Okay, got it. Got it. Okay.
>> Taylor: Because you're just walking for, like, eight or nine hours a day.
>> Farz: Got it.
>> Taylor: Like, so either either of you did or not. Like, it's going to be like that. And you can also. There's also science behind. Behind how mad you get when you're hungry because you can live for a while without food, but you're not obviously not happy. It, like, messes with you in every way possible, you know?
>> Farz: Yeah.
>> Taylor: So other things, like I was telling you earlier, California is becoming a republic. They're going through a lot of Native American areas. Like, they need the Pawnee. Some of them are nice. Some of them will steal their stuff and laugh at them, like, literally, like, steal their cattle and laugh as I run away with it, which is kind of funny. But, you know, that will happen.
20 wagons decide to take the Hastings cut off from Fort Bridger
So now we're back to the Donner party themselves. That's just, like, notes on the time period. Notes on what? You'd bring notes on everybody who was there, and now everybody who's going is in Laramie, Wyoming. And it is June, so they left mid April. Now it's June. Wyoming is drier than they've been in before, so they are starting to get really dry and dirty. There's, like, dust everywhere. It's like. Like inches of dust kind of on everything. And it's getting. Starting to get, like, really, really miserable. They're a little bit behind, but so far it's not too bad. So I think this is the point where someone wrote in their journal, I'd say the trouble is in getting started. Like, it's not going to get worse than this. You know, so optimistic. Never write down.
>> Farz: So nobody knocked on wood.
>> Taylor: That was a problem for real. So now it's July and they are walking through Wyoming. And this is where they make their decision. So they get to the point they need to go the regular route or take the shortcut by Hastings, which again, isn't short and hasn't been done. And. But he said it would take off 300 miles on their trip. So some people they're with don't do it and they go somewhere else. They even meet someone that James Reed knew from his time in the Blackhawk War was kind of walking the opposite direction. And he says, like, hey, man, turn back. Like, don't do this. But they do it anyway. So on July 20, 20 wagons who decide to take the Hastings cut off from Fort Bridger, Wyoming elect George Donner as their leader. And this is their, like, very last chance to turn around and take the well worn path at Fort Bridger, which is like an outpost, kind of like a. Like a convenience store. You know, essentially on the way there, there is someone who wrote a letter to the people who were the proprietors of Fort Bridger and said, do not let people take this shortcut. It is not a shortcut. It does not work. But they didn't tell the Donner party that because if they did, then, like, they might lose their business, you know, so.
>> Farz: Yeah. So greedy.
>> Taylor: Yeah. It's like if you're. If you're convenience stores, like on the, on the highway and they shut down the highway, like, you're f*****.
>> Farz: But I thought that Donna was named Reed's replacement later on.
>> Taylor: No, this is before Reed leaves.
>> Farz: Okay.
>> Taylor: Yeah. So this is called the Parting of the Ways. And the Donner party turns south into Utah's Wastach Mountains. They think that Hastings is going to be able to meet them. Like, they've never actually met Hastings in real life, but they. He said that he would be there waiting for anybody who wanted to take the cut off. By the time they get to the spot that they. He said he would be, they actually find a letter from Hastings in a bush, which is so nuts. They find this letter and he's like, actually, it's a little bit hard, a little bit in front of you. Hold on, I'll come back and meet you. So they wait for a little bit and they send some men ahead and they're like, hey, this is actually a lot more rocky and a lot more steep than we thought. You know, is this still going to work? And Hastings was like, yeah, but like, go a little bit that way and like pointed another direction and they went that way instead. But again, like, Hastings doesn't know what he's talking about it kind of just like clinks away.
>> Farz: It is crazy to think, like, now how impossible it is to really figure things out on your own without, like, gps. And these people are doing it across country like a note and stash in a bush.
>> Taylor: I can't believe that they got it. It's like, so crazy, actually insane. And, like, I also was flying over the mountains on my way home from Atlanta this week, thinking, this is super easy. Real lucky I could do this for all the s*** we talk about flying. It was super easy to get from Atlanta to Vegas and from Vegas to Palm Springs. So they have to go over the mountains and the wagons again. Like, walking over it would be hard, but they have wagons and animals. And then they get to the Great Salt Lake desert, which is 80 miles of nothing. It is hot and dry and there's no water and there's no vegetation. And so they're walking across this. Hastings told them this desert would take them two days, and it took them five, which is a huge difference when your animals are dying. So some of the animals were dying. They would walk at night because it was so hot. You probably remember this, but there's like a part in one of the men's journals where they name a campsite Mad Woman Camp.
>> Farz: Yes, I remember this.
>> Taylor: And, like, the women probably just, like, have been mad for a very long time. So you just noticed these women are mad?
>> Farz: Yeah.
>> Taylor: While they're walking, some of the Shoshones steal their things. Like, it's not great. They rest at a hot springs. But a hot springs isn't drinkable. You know, like, they can't drink that salt, the sulfuric water. So other things that happen during this time, like a boy falls and almost gets his leg amputated, they, like, hire a mountain man to try to cut it off. They're like, no, let's not do this again. We're really lucky that it's not amputation. It's like the number one thing for a broken leg anymore.
>> Farz: Real quick for context, because I'm looking at the map. From Fort Bridger, the traditional trail would lead you north so that you approach center for which is basically Sacramento now from the south, or, sorry, from the north. But the Hastings cut off takes them down south. And that's like. That's a big. That's a big divide. Like, if you actually look at it on a map, it's. It's not a whole trail. It actually matches up to the trail at some point.
The shortcut adds 300 miles because you're cutting across the Sierra Nevada
But it only does that midway into Nevada, which Is kind of interesting, right?
>> Taylor: And then it takes. But the. The shortcut adds an extra, like, 300 miles.
>> Farz: It adds miles. It doesn't retract mil. And it adds the worst miles because you're cutting across the Sierra Nevada.
>> Taylor: Yeah, yeah, exactly. At some point, like one of the. An old man named Mr. Hardcoop, his feet were just so bad. Like, their shoes are falling apart also. Also, they're not wearing, like, nice shoes. They're wearing, like, shoes, leather shoes are going to fall apart immediately. And his feet are just so bad, he just stops and they. They leave him and he dies. William pike has shot by accident and dies. And then the hot guy dies, which is a bummer. And it reminds me of a certain television show that just killed the hot guy that I no longer am interested in watching.
>> Farz: Is this about Last of Us? Because I didn't watch that.
>> Taylor: Yes, it is not watching. Without Peter Pascal, there's no reason to. So please keep listening, even though the hot guy's dead to the story and it's not a spoiler. If you really like Last of Us, you would know that it happened in the game, which I did not know, but, like, whatever. October 5th. Everyone is mad, and James Reed and John Snyder are trying to get some oxen to move, and Snyder gets frustrated and he hits the ox and then he hits Reed and Reed stabs Snyder in the chest and he dies. And everyone was mad because you need a hot guy. And also he was nice and fun, and Reed's not as fun or nice.
>> Farz: Understandable.
>> Taylor: So they wanted to hang him for the crime, but instead they let him go with just a horse. His kids come up at night and give him some crackers and a gun, but he ends up going. And actually be doing fine. He ends up going a different direction, finding a fort and inexplicably joining the Mexican American War in exchange for some help. And his wife gets a smaller wagon and she goes on.
>> Farz: Yeah, because it's so much easier to do this on a horse. It's the wagons that are the problem. It's the fact that you're carrying all this heavy stuff and, like, the wheels.
>> Taylor: Are falling off the axles and you have to fix it. And then if you don't have someone who's going to have to fix it.
>> Farz: Like, yeah, the wheels are made out of wood. They're not meant to be flexy and bendy the way rubber is. So, like, it's a. He got off easy.
>> Taylor: He did. He definitely did.
So they're about to hit the Sierra Nevadas and now, like,
So they're about to hit the Sierra Nevadas and now, like, in the Midwest, where they're from, in Illinois, snow is dense and freezes, so you can walk on it. Like, it's easy to, like, snowshoe in parts of the country and the world because it, like, it snows and then it freezes, and then you can, like, walk on it. But the snow they're about to encounter is, like 8ft of powdery snow per day that is, like, impossible to move through, you know? So is this the worst winter in a while? Is it also their awful luck that this is such a bad winter? And it might be true. So this is also the winter of the Franklin exhibition. And that was one of the. That was, like, also very bad, you know, so it might have just been a really bad winter for both of them.
>> Farz: Yeah.
>> Taylor: Making a bad situation worse.
>> Farz: It was. It would have been the worst place across anyways. And also it was, like, the worst. Unseasonably cold.
>> Taylor: Yeah. So, like, later they will see, like, the trees around where they camped were cut, like, 10 to 20ft off the ground because that's how high up they were because they were on the snow.
>> Farz: That's crazy.
>> Taylor: Makes sense. Like, that was, like. So you could see that they were, like, not near the ground when they cut a tree down. So October 28th, there's a really big storm, and the Brains and the Kesselbergs try to go through a pass that's now called Donner Pass, but they can't do it. And they come back and they are kind of stranded around from Truckee Lake, which is now Downer Lake, but at that point it was Truckee lake, and there's 60 people. So there's an old cabin. Oh, no, I'm sorry. There's 87 people. So, like, 60 people go by the lake. It's the Brains, the Reeds and the children, the Eddies, the Graves, the Murphy's Kesabergs, and some. And like, all of their hired help, they huddle in three cabins near Trekkie Lake. So there was, like, one old cabin that had already. That was there when they got there. So the Breens take that and they just kind of, like, repair it. But the other cabins are built out of, like, pine trees. Like, they don't have time to, like, make them into, like, boards, you know, like, just, like, putting pine trees together, hoping for the best.
>> Farz: I also think they're called lean tos. They're not real cabinets. They're not meant to be, like, standalone structures.
>> Taylor: Right. And, like, so there is, like, one that leans against a rock and, like, they do lean against each other kind of. So like the. Like the hired men will like, have a lean to outside of the cabin as well.
>> Farz: Got it.
>> Taylor: And try to get some of the heat from the cabin. So. And then 27 people with the Donners. The Donners and some. Some teamsters are in tents at Alder Creek, which about like five minutes away. So they ate their animals pretty soon because they were going to die anyway. Like, what's the point in waiting for your ox to live a couple more weeks if he's going to get sicker and sicker, you know?
>> Farz: Yeah.
>> Taylor: So they did that first. They did try to ice fish, but they didn't get anything. But they could see the fish under the ice, but they couldn't get any fish. And the cabins, like, etc, like, again, like you said, like, they're not. It's not like a cabin. It's not nice. They're awful. I learned that they use chamber pots with like. I was like, why do they bring the chamber pots? Oh, my God. But also, like, you can't really get out of it to go to the bathroom in the middle of a blinding snowstorm.
>> Farz: So. You know what's funny is, like, the more you think about the logistics of what they were dealing with, like, the more nightmare she has. Where my head went to, even before you mentioned the chamber pots, was that it's the worst feeling when you're out in the cold and you have to do something physical because your hands and everything gets so numb by the cold that it's like. It makes everything so much more painful. Even if you could do it, which a lot of times you can't. And then all of a sudden, and then later on when the numbing goes away and you realize what you did to your hands and you're like, oh, my go. Everything hurts so much worse.
>> Taylor: Yeah. Oh, my God. And then people are like, losing fingers and losing toes. You know, all that's happening, it's bad. There's also lice and bed bugs everywhere and just like, smells terrible because it keeps snowing. So the snow is now like, above their structures. So they have to like, climb out to get wood and do things. Which means, like, all of the, like, dank terribleness stays inside.
>> Farz: Yeah.
>> Taylor: You know, so several people are die during this time. And by. So it's about like a month and a half. And by December 16, 15 people are like, we have to try to do something. Like, we have to try to leave. We're not gonna make it. They were eating, like, you know, eating their Shoes eating their leather. Like, you could, like, you can boil, like, a leather strap until there's like a goo. I'm like, you're not gonna live on that, you know?
>> Farz: No. It'll fill your stomach, but it won't give you any Nutrients.
>> Taylor: Yeah. So 15 people make some snowshoes and they set out later. This group is going to be called the Forlorn Hope. It's a group of 10 men and five women, and they start walking, and immediately again, obviously, they're freezing. But also they start to get snow blind. So I don't know where they are, and they can't see anything. And then I know they joke about this in last podcast, but I'm sorry to say it with the short guy gets hurt by snowblindness the most, and he just, like, can't see and he just sits down. And five months later, they find his body in a stump and, like, they hope that he just got tired and, like, willed himself to die.
The Irish immigrant Patrick Dolan dies first, but they do eat others
>> Farz: You know, those are a bit where he was, like, the original Keeble Ralph, I think.
>> Taylor: Yeah. Okay. The Irish immigrant Patrick Dolan. He is like, we should draw straws and kill someone and eat them. And people were like, like, no, like, we're not doing that. Like, what's wrong with you? Like, they hadn't been, like, super long without food yet, so they're just like, no. But of course, Patrick Dolan dies first, and they think that he dies of hunger, but he probably died of, like, hypothermia, you know.
>> Farz: Right.
>> Taylor: Because they weren't like. Like they were hungry. But you can last a long time being hungry longer than you'd think. So probably didn't need to eat him, but, like, they've been eating their leather and everything is terrible. So he's the first person that they eat it probably like a lot of people do when you eat someone is you remove their heads and feet so you forget that you're eating a person. They probably eat the liver, the heart, and the kidneys first, because that's the most nutrient part. And they also, when they would do this, especially this group, they would make sure that you didn't eat your family members.
>> Farz: Yeah, they like the live rules.
>> Taylor: Yeah. To cook the food, they would just light entire trees on fire, like dead trees, and try to, like, go around it and then cook. Unfortunately, there's a part where if they would have walked over a ridge, they would have been really close to where they wanted to be, but they went the wrong way. But again, to your point, like, how are you supposed to know that that happened.
>> Farz: Now that I mentioned it, that happened in a live too, where they just, like, crested this one mountain. They were, like, on the edge of it. They would look down and seen a road the people just, like, driving on.
>> Taylor: Yeah, but you're like, you just don't. I mean, how are you supposed to figure that out? Yeah, all things. So they. At one point, they do kill a deer. They shoot at it, and they miss. And then they, like, attack it and slit its throat and drink its blood. And then. So two of the people who find the deer, they are, like, a day ahead of the other group people in the group, and they're like, shooting guns in the air so they can hear them and going to me to get the meat. So they do do that, but they do end up, you know, everybody else who dies, they do eat them. Louis and Salvador are like, everyone's looking at us like we are covered in ketchup, you know, like, because they're like, we don't know you guys. You guys are just like, here. The two muaks who are there to help them. And so they run away, and by the time that they get to them, they literally follow their bloody footprints to find them because their feet are bleeding so badly, they're so sick, and they're so. Just, like, so malnourished that they shoot them and then eat them as well. So those guys knew that that was going to happen. So after 33 days of walking in the snow, seven of the 15 people are left. And this is when they walk into that native village, and the people are like, these are ghosts.
>> Farz: Wait, how many. How many were still alive?
>> Taylor: Seven.
>> Farz: Seven. Okay.
>> Taylor: Yep. Five women and two men. They were almost naked because their food, their clothes had been, like, rotting off of them, and they didn't have much clothing to begin with, so they were, like, nearly naked. They didn't have shoes. Their feet were black. And they kind of walk out of the. Out of the nothingness and go into this village. And, like, the children start to cry, you know, because they're like, are these ghosts? Like, what is this? Like, these people are awful. So they feed them, like, acorns and nuts, try to get them a little bit of sustenance. And then William Eddy from the group, he goes to find a small community in Sacramento, and that's when the rescues begin. But they walk for 33 days before they.
>> Farz: The forlorn. Oh, the forlorn Hope did okay.
>> Taylor: Mm. So meanwhile, James Reed is making promises to go to war. He might have gone for a little Bit and come back. He had tried to rescue them in October. They weren't where he thought they would be because he thought they would have gotten further than they did. So he couldn't even go in to rescue them because he couldn't get past the part they were stuck in, you know. So the first relief comes on February 18th when they go to where the cabins should be, like, where they heard the cabins should be. And the reliefs are like, you know, some, like, single men from the forts and all these things who are, like, coming together to go. To go help him. It's sort of like a promise of, like, getting paid later, that kind of thing. When they get there, there were, like, holes in the snow and some smoke, but no cabins. And they realized that the cabins were buried. And they kind of looked down a hole. And Mrs. Murphy pops her head down the snow hole and she says, are you men from California or from heaven? You know, just like, can't believe I've seen another person. Of all the people that were left at the camp, 13 of them died. The roofs were rotting under the snow. It smelled horrible. And there are 44 people left. And the people who rescued them were like, this is just the worst thing I've ever seen.
>> Farz: Out of 80, right?
>> Taylor: Yeah, it was 87 in total. Yeah. So 15 had gone on the Forlorn Hope. Seven of those people made it. And now they're back. And 21 people leave with the first group. Three of them will die on the way because it isn't now that they're rescued. So they don't have. Like, they still have to get out, you know, like, you still have to go over a walk through the snow out. And a lot of the kids go. And, like, the first one, three of them, like I said, died on the.
The second relief takes 17 more people out, mostly kids
On the way. Poor William Hook was 13 years old. Old, I believe. And he dies from eating too much when he gets there because you can't do that either, you know.
>> Farz: Poor boy, though.
>> Taylor: Poor baby.
>> Farz: Yeah.
>> Taylor: They actually meet James Reed on the way, and they're like, what the h***? We can't believe that you. We can see you again. He's on his way to go with, like, the second. The second rel. And they end up going to Sutter's Fort for safety and staying there. The second group, second relief arrives back at the Donner camp on March 1st. Poor Lavinia Murphy. She's the one that they thought was 50, because when they find her, she is nearly dead in the cabin with, like, a bunch of kids. She's like taking care of like 15 kids by herself. And she's like nearly blind from everything. Like, everything is terrible. She doesn't even make it out. She dies before they even get back to her because she can't walk out right now. But the second relief takes 17 more people out, mostly kids. On the way out, there's more snow and the kids just stop moving. Like, they're just like, I can't do this. You know, like, you can't. They like, we cannot physically do this. When the kids sit down, they call their camp Starved Camp. And that is where they will eat Elizabeth Graves and her 5 year old son Franklin, and some of the kids were later carried all the way down the mountain, like by mountain men. They just picked them up and carried them because the kids just like absolutely couldn't do it.
>> Farz: Yeah.
>> Taylor: They were probably. So they ate Elizabeth Graves and Franklin in Starved Camp, but they're obviously doing this at Donner Lake as well. Keseberg is one of the German immigrants and he had really just like lost his mind. He was by. When they found him, he was by himself in a cabin. He had George Donner's head in a pot and there were bones everywhere. So he definitely ate George Donner. He told William Eddy that he ate his son. And he said that Mrs. Donner had stopped by begging him to hide her money because a lot of them had money that was also heavy, you know, and they were like, she absolutely did not do that. You killed her and ate her. And then he had to like, finally, after they tried to kill him, he disclosed that he had a bunch of her money, like hidden somewhere, basically.
>> Farz: Let me go and I'll tell you where the money's hidden.
>> Taylor: Yeah, yeah. So Kesenberg walked out at some point. I don't know how he, how he got out. Later he would sue some of the survivors for defamation. And he won $1 in court and had to pay the court fees because they're like, no. Later he said, quote, I often think that the Almighty has signaled me out among all men on the face of the earth in order to see how much hardship, suffering and misery a human being can bear. And then everybody else called him the cannibal of the dinner party. So didn't go great.
>> Farz: Justifiably so.
>> Taylor: Of our last to be rescued came out. John Baptiste Trudeau, 16 years old, was taken out. And the people that he had been watching over were Eliza, Georgina, Francis and Simon, who were 3, 4, 6 and 8. So a 16 year old was taking care of the last of the Kids on their way. On their way out. Also, just a mention is a lot of the places that the Forlorn Hope camped at. And, like, where people died and where they gave up and where they were going was like they were just sitting on top of gold and they didn't know.
>> Farz: No way. I didn't know.
>> Taylor: Not that the gold would have helped them, you know, or whatever, but, like, it's exactly where the gold rush would be, is where they were right now.
>> Farz: Oh, wow.
>> Taylor: Yeah. So later, a Mormon battalion during the Mexican American War would pull all of the bodies and all the bones, everything that was left at Donor Lake, like, at a time when there was no snow, put it in one of the cabins in a hole and just burn the whole thing. Just, like, get rid of it, you know. Lansford Hastings received death threats, obviously, because of what he had done. And someone who had done it before the mic, before the Donner party, when it was, like, hard, but not like you get stuck hard, you know, tried to kill him and, like, you know, tried to. It was, like, yelling at him about the things. And Hastings said, quote. Oh, it's. Oh, he said. What did he say? He could say nothing, but he was very sorry and that he meant well, you know, annoying. Of the 48 people who survived, no Reeds or brains died, but there were lots of orphans, you know, and a lot of widows. William Eddy was alone. He lost his whole family. Only three mules made it, so three animals made it out. And then also most of their possessions were gone. Like, obviously, like nothing they brought came. Came through. Virginia Reed, one of the girls who made it wrote a letter to her cousin, Mary Keys, that ended up being published in a newspaper. But on May 16, 1847, she said, you know, I'm not going tell you everything that happened, you know, but here's some of the things. And then at the end, she said, quote, never take no cutoffs and hurry along as fast as you can, which is good advice. And then a lot of the women who were widowed and left alone, you know, they lived their lives out in the West. They married. Some of them married several times because their husbands were, like, killed in the war or killed in, you know, having, like, arguments with people or just, like, falling, you know, whatever. All the things. You know, the west is so dangerous. And then a lot of the. Some of the last survivors, they died in, like, the 1920s, you know, because they were kids when it had happened, and they died, like, in their 80s, which is crazy.
>> Farz: They survived that to also survive the Great Depression, which Is kind of rough. I know.
For real? Yeah. Every time's a rough time to be alive, as we know
>> Taylor: For real? Yeah. Every time's a rough time to be alive, as we know. So it is what it is.
>> Farz: There's gradients to rough though.
>> Taylor: There are, though. There are. But yeah, that is, that is the story of the Donner party.
Nevada's never done Tahoe or Reno or any of that
So now I've been to Donner Lake. It's very pretty. But I've been there in the summer.
>> Farz: I've never been in the Sierra. Nevada's never done Tahoe or Reno or any of that.
>> Taylor: It's very pretty. Like my aunt owns a house in Tahoe and I remember like a couple years ago there was a winter that. I mean, there's winters there that are so bad all the time. And there was one that was so bad that like her and my uncle were like on the roof shoveling snow off the roof so the roof wouldn't collapse. And that's in their like, nice house in Tahoe, you know?
>> Farz: Yeah.
>> Taylor: So like, it's definitely like there's places in Tahoe that like you can't go during certain times still. Obviously, like, it's not like a thing. There's also like that. There's also like a Disney ski resort up there that's like supposed to be like some of the best snow in America.
Jeremy Renner got injured by a snowmobile in a recent episode
>> Farz: I am, I heard Jeremy Renner, remember, you know, you know that name, right? And he was talking about what happened with his accident where, where we all thought he was like dead or dying. Have you heard the story?
>> Taylor: What happened to him again?
>> Farz: So apparently he has a amazing house in the Sierra Nevadas in Tahoe. And he has a. What are they called? Black Cat or.
>> Taylor: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Like a snowmobile kind of thing.
>> Farz: Like a snowmobile thing. And, and you know what I'd heard is like he got injured by this thing and I didn't really appreciate what it really was. And then he explained what it is and it's, it's like a tractor. Like, it's like. It's like a tractor sized thing. It's wider than like a highway road or lane would be. And it has treads like a tank that has tank treads that rolls over the ice or the stone. And so he was out doing stuff on his property with this thing and. Well, that part of it's the relevant part because I was like, oh, like even if you're that rich and have that great of a place, you need to also buy this $250,000 tractor thing.
>> Taylor: Exactly. I was gonna say that sounds huge.
>> Farz: Get around. Yeah, yeah.
>> Taylor: You can't just like walk around There even, like, with today. Yeah. You have to be, like, exceptionally well equipped.
>> Farz: Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. He ended up leaving it running while he was standing on the tread, and then something knocked it out of gear, and then he. He fell, and his. His whole body was laid out lengthwise for the entire tread as the thing sort of moving over his entire body.
>> Taylor: Oh, my God.
>> Farz: And so, yeah, it was. It was gnarly, it sounds like, but it. But it also illustrated, like, how crazy, like, wild that part of the country is even for.
>> Taylor: Yeah.
>> Farz: Yeah. Even now. Even for the richest people.
>> Taylor: Totally. Totally.
>> Farz: So I do want to visit. I. I only know it. It through the Godfather because that's where the wedding scene took place was their house in Tahoe.
>> Taylor: Yeah. It's very pretty. Yeah, Reno is very pretty. That whole area is nice.
>> Farz: Fun. Well, that was. That was great. That was a fun episode. It was really nostalgic. It took me right back to a lot of those old episodes.
>> Taylor: Yeah.
>> Farz: Cool.
We pronounced papal incorrectly, so we apologize
What else you got for us?
>> Taylor: We pronounced papal incorrectly. Yeah, it's papal.
>> Farz: What?
>> Taylor: I say papal.
>> Farz: I'm sorry. Sorry, people.
>> Taylor: Nadine pointed that out, so we apologize. It's papal.
>> Farz: I promise you. I can edit.
Taylor: Congratulations to Chicago for producing a pope
>> Taylor: I've shared since we've talked. Oh, no, don't do that. I've shared a lot of memes with you because we're very excited that the Pope is from Chicago.
>> Farz: Hey, the Bears are going to make a comeback.
>> Taylor: I've seen so many hilarious memes. There was one, like, a whole, like, to the tune of High Hopes by Panic at the Disco, it was called Chai Town Pope. It was so funny. Like, we have a Chai Town Pope. Like, everyone. Everyone is just, like, hilarious. They're like, oh, my God. Like, the Bears are definitely gonna win this year. Like, he's like. Because he's a Sox fan. Whatever. There's only one team, one football team in Chicago. It's the Bears. And then, like, I said, either one, where it was like, the white smoke was actually, like, the Cardinals grilling, like, brats. That's funny. That's so funny.
>> Farz: Yeah. I'm not religious whatsoever, but there is a certain sense of pride that he is an American.
>> Taylor: I know. It's fun. And he's a good one, you know?
>> Farz: And he's a nice guy. He's a good one.
>> Taylor: That we could get. We got one of the better ones.
>> Farz: And it goes against the whole thin pope, fat pope thing around, like, their ideology shifts dramatically from, like, more progressive to conservative. It sounds like this. This guy's more in line with Pope Francis.
>> Taylor: Yeah, that sounds. Sounds like they, like, knew each other and, like, were.
>> Farz: Yeah. Yeah, sounds cool.
>> Taylor: Congratulations, Chicago, for producing a pope.
>> Farz: Yeah. Way to go, guys. You did it all.
>> Taylor: Congratulations to the Bears for the upcoming win.
>> Farz: Cool. Do we have any listener mail besides the Nadine?
>> Taylor: Nope, that was it. Thank you. Sorry.
>> Farz: Cool. Well, thank you for sharing, Taylor. I guess if there's nothing else, we can go ahead and cut things off.
>> Taylor: Cool. Yeah. Well, find us on all social medias. We have a Patreon Doom to fill a pod. And let us know if you have any ideas. Doom to fellowpod Gmail.com. and thank you, Dustin, for suggesting this. I loved, you know, revisiting it. Not like we ever did it, but like there's a while ago where I talked. I thought about it a lot.
>> Farz: So it's a. It's an incredible story.
>> Taylor: Grateful to be able to fly over the Rocky Mountains.
>> Farz: Yeah. And the more you know about it, the more terrifying it gets, which is cool. Well, thanks, Taylor. We'll go ahead and cut.