Today, we delve into the 1970s sensational 'novel non-fiction' book 'Sybil.' Sybil is the heroic journey of a woman plagued with 16 separate personalities - they came from [and trigger warning here] horrific childhood abuse and were eventually merged with the help of her psychiatrist. The book made A LOT of money, was a made-for-TV movie, and started a company called Sybil, Inc. Was it true? Kind of? Was the real Sybil pushed into it by her doctor? Also kind of? We will talk about what's true, what isn't, and how complicated and 'magical' our human brains are.
Sources:
Sybil - by Flora Rheta Schreiber - https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/sybil-by-flora-rheta-schreiber/259328/item/84207467/?#edition=4801599&idiq=3086510
Sybil Exposed: The Extraordinary Story Behind the Famous Multiple Personality Case - By Debbie Nathan - https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/sybil-exposed-the-extraordinary-story-behind-the-famous-multiple-personality-case_debbie-nathan/271028/?
Today, we delve into the 1970s sensational 'novel non-fiction' book 'Sybil.' Sybil is the heroic journey of a woman plagued with 16 separate personalities - they came from [and trigger warning here] horrific childhood abuse and were eventually merged with the help of her psychiatrist. The book made A LOT of money, was a made-for-TV movie, and started a company called Sybil, Inc.
Was it true? Kind of? Was the real Sybil pushed into it by her doctor? Also kind of?
We will talk about what's true, what isn't, and how complicated and 'magical' our human brains are.
Hi Friends! Our transcripts aren't perfect, but I wanted to make sure you had something - if you'd like an edited transcript, I'd be happy to prioritize one for you - please email doomedtofailpod@gmail.com - Thanks! - Taylor
Taylor: I need your help. I need you. And so, my fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you
>> Taylor: In the matter of the people of State of California vs. Orenthal James Simpson, case number BA097.
>> Farz: And so, my fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you. We are live and we are recording. Taylor, welcome back to your own show.
>> Taylor: Thank you. You welcome back to you as well.
>> Farz: Thank you. I need you.
Are you excited for pumpkin spice latte season? I am. I had my first one this morning
Welcome.
>> Taylor: How is Mexico? You were in Mexico.
>> Farz: I was in Mexico. It was great. It was fantastic. It was. It was my first time at all inclusive. And there is something nice about just not having to think about food or drinking or whatever. It's just all there, and usually it's all inclusive. It's like a nice giant resort, so you don't even have to leave the property, which I didn't. So that was nice.
>> Taylor: Yeah, you cruise, but without the drowning in the ocean. You probably could drown in the ocean, but, like, there's no less motion sickness.
>> Farz: Yes. Yes.
>> Taylor: Yeah.
>> Farz: And it was on the beach, but, yeah. So you get everything. Get a little bit of everything there. So it's kind of nice.
>> Taylor: That sounds great.
>> Farz: How's life been on your end?
>> Taylor: Good. We've been busy. We went to Big Bear this weekend. Went on the boat. Kids have a thousand activities. It's good.
>> Farz: Nice. Are you excited for pumpkin spice latte season?
>> Taylor: I am. I had one already.
>> Farz: One.
>> Taylor: And it was good. I got a decaf one because I am getting these terrible headaches, and I think they might be caffeine related, but I am drinking Diet Coke right now, so who knows?
>> Farz: I had my first one this morning.
>> Taylor: Pumpkin spice.
>> Farz: Yeah, it was good. It was very good. It was also, like, a nice welcome back home because I don't think they do pumpkin spice in Mexico, so it was kind of like.
>> Taylor: That'd be weird. Yeah. I went to. Went to Trader Joe's as well, and Trader Joe's has every. It's too much pumpkin spice. Like, pumpkin spice everything. I'm like, I don't need a pumpkin spice egg. You know, like, leave me alone. Like, everything is pumpkin spice.
>> Farz: The Starbucks nitro. Pumpkin spice with the sweet cream is chef's kiss.
>> Taylor: I do like the sweet cream.
>> Farz: It is amazing. It's not good for you, probably because it is super rich and decadent word nitro in it.
>> Taylor: I feel like it's trying to kill you, but it's still. I get it.
>> Farz: Yes.
>> Taylor: I get it.
>> Farz: Yes. Cool. Well, am I going first there, or are you going first?
>> Taylor: It's usually me. Unless you desperately want to go first.
>> Farz: No.
>> Taylor: All right. I can go.
>> Farz: Yeah.
>> Taylor: Okay.
>> Farz: Go nuts.
Taylor Fars talks about multiple personalities and dissociative identity disorder
>> Taylor: Introduce us as well.
>> Farz: Oh, right.
>> Taylor: Hello. Welcome to Doomed to Fail. We bring you histories, disasters and failures and interesting stories. And I am Taylor, joined by Fars. And we're back to recording. But I did just get an email from someone who said, thanks for all the RE releases. They're fun. So, yay. We've been doing.
>> Farz: Thank you for doing those.
>> Taylor: Yeah, I did a lot of scheduling things, which was.
>> Farz: Taylor, for anybody that doesn't know, is really the underlying engine that keeps this thing on the road. So I am.
>> Taylor: You are, too. You edited it. Yeah. You learned how to open GarageBand, which.
>> Farz: Is hard.
>> Taylor: Not easy. Okay. But I'm ready. So I mentioned this to you when I was there, that I was reading this book, but I, since then, have finished the book and read another book. Today's story. I have one that has 18 main characters. Sixteen of them are women, two of them are men, but I only have three bodies. Does that make sense?
>> Farz: Okay, so it's schizophrenia.
>> Taylor: It's multiple personalities.
>> Farz: Got it. Okay, great.
>> Taylor: Which is separate from schizophrenia and also no longer a thing. You say dissociative identity disorder now, but I'm going to tie it back.
>> Farz: Wait, to what? Schizophrenia or multiple personalities?
>> Taylor: You don't. We don't say that anymore.
>> Farz: Interesting. Is that supposed to be bad to say that?
>> Taylor: Well, it's not real at first.
>> Farz: I don't know. Okay, Just tell a story.
>> Taylor: Okay. I'm trying to, sort of. But I'm going to talk about it in the vein of the 1970s sensation of the book and the TV movie Sybil, which I have right here.
>> Farz: Yep.
>> Taylor: Told you I was reading and that I read. And that is really good. It was like, very much as it says, a page turner. Like, it was great. I got this at a church in the. Take a book, leave a book. Didn't leave a book. Took this instead. And it was great.
>> Farz: So, you know, the longest time, when I heard the book was called Sybil, I thought they were talking about Sybil shepherd, the show that was on with her kids. And I was like, I don't get it. She had multiple personalities. Like, I didn't. I never saw what. It doesn't matter. But, like, that's what I always associated with. I never knew that. It was a whole separate thing.
>> Taylor: It's not. It's a whole separate case. She's played by what's her face and I can't remember. In the TV movie, she looks like my mom. She's a mom in Forest Company.
>> Farz: Oh. Oh. Oh, my. Oh, my God. Your mom. Sally. Your mom does look like Sally Field.
>> Taylor: My mom looks just like Sally Field. Yeah.
>> Farz: Wow.
>> Taylor: Yeah. So, yes, played by Sally Field in the. In the 1970s TV movie Sybil. And then there's another one that was made later, but I read the book. And then I also read a book from 2011 called Sybil Exposed, which is like debunking a lot of what happened in this book. But we're going to talk about what happened in the book, what happened in Sybil Exposed, the book, exposing the book, and then kind of what happened in between to the women who are actually involved. And then what it actually could maybe be if it is a real disorder.
All of Sybil's personalities are merged into one person in the book
>> Farz: Cool.
>> Taylor: And I'm saying right now, I don't know. So the three people are. There is Flora Schreiber. She is our author. She's the person who wrote the book. Sybil, she's a journalist. There's Dr. Cornelia Wilbur. She is a psychiatrist that worked with Sybil through. Throughout many, many years in New York City and then some years when she was a child in Omaha, Nebraska. And then there is Sybil Dorset, who is the. The main character of the book, which is like a true story novel. I'm going to explain what that means too. But her real name is Shirley Mason. So Shirley Mason is the real name of this character, Sybil, but we're probably going to call her Sybil a lot because that's who she is in the book.
>> Farz: Sure.
>> Taylor: Sybil's personalities are. There's Sybil herself. There's Victoria Antoinette Charlo, who is Vicky. And she's like a really sophisticated blonde woman who has a family somewhere else. Like she's not related to Sybil. The others think that they are related to Sybil. It's kind of confusing, but let me just list the names. There's two Peggies. There's Peggy Lou and Peggy Ann. They're both kind of like young girls. There's. There's a Mary, a Marcia, a Vanessa. There's two Bo, Mike and Sid. They're kind of like little kids the whole time. Or when Sybil wants to, like, do something that is more manly, like build something with wood and nails, then she didn't do it. Sid did it. You know, there's Nancy Luann. There's another Sybil Ann. There's Ruthie, Clara, Helen, Marjorie. There's a woman named the Blonde that comes up at the very, very end, just like a very assertive blonde woman. And then there's Sybil herself, but all of her personalities are merged and she's one person again. So they're all like the distinct people that are listed in the book as being personalities of Sybil the character.
>> Farz: Okay. So a lot to hold on to.
>> Taylor: It is a lot to hold on to. You would think you would need notes, so I think also, like, I'm going to say this later, but it isn't. There's so much going on, like, in people's brains that, like, who knows what it is, but whatever it is is not, like, magical. But I think the first thing you think of is that it's something that's, like, supernatural and, like, magical to have more than one person inside your body, you know?
>> Farz: Yeah. I kind of think what goes on inside the brain is magical because it's like a bunch of chemicals and electronic things that are going. It's like. It's kind of nuts.
>> Taylor: That's what I was thinking as well. I was thinking, like, if we're going to describe it and have this feeling that it's, like, a little bit magical, then, like, it's all a little bit magical because.
>> Farz: Yeah, of course.
>> Taylor: You know what I mean? Like, the. I told you to listen to the. The. This new series on last Podcast where they're talking about Aaron Hernandez, and I.
>> Farz: Did listen to it, and actually, I will tell you that I got re. Obsessed with that case, and I just got home from the vet and I listened to another Aaron Hernandez podcast because I was like, this is. It's just such a crazy story. But. Yes, go ahead.
>> Taylor: But. Yeah, well, but. But also. Exactly that. Like, your brain gets rattled around and you're a different person. Like, yeah, there's so much going on in there, and there's so much. Like your head is protecting something that is so important, and if anything happens to it, then, like, you're no longer you. You cease to exist and you become something else, you know, which is crazy. I. I don't mean that like crazy crazy. I mean it, like, the concept is crazy.
>> Farz: I actually emailed into last podcast for the first time ever, because me and Marcus wanted to Texas Tech at the exact same time, and I knew exactly who the football player was that he was talking about.
>> Taylor: That's hilarious.
>> Farz: Yeah, that's fun.
>> Taylor: That's fun for you guys.
In Cold Blood comes out in 1973 and it's a hit
So I'm going to talk about what happened in the book, Sybil, and just, like, tell you what happened. Like, I'm doing a book report. I'll stop holding it because no one cares. Like, I'm doing a book report. It's a hit. It comes out in 1973. They sell millions of copies right before this, a couple years before this another book had come out called the Three Faces of Eve, which is similarly about a woman who has multiple personalities, but she only had three. So that was like one of the first recorded cases. There were a couple before that. And then also, which is interesting is In Cold Blood had also just come out. And have you seen that movie or read it or you saw the Trooping Caputi movie?
>> Farz: Well, I saw the Troupudi movie. Yeah.
>> Taylor: So my brother in law actually was asking me last week about horror books. He's like, what can I read? It's like a horror book that's scary, that would be like, not too gory, whatever. And I was told him that In Cold Blood is so scary to me. Like, I read the book and it was like in Friends, I wanted to put it in the freezer. Like, I was so scared, you know, and. Cause it's like a true story and it could happen to anyone and it's horrible. But the way that. Which I didn't. I don't know if this is in the Capote movie because I don't think I saw that. But In Cold Blood was put out as like a serial book, like where you got it in the news, the paper, or like a magazine. Like every week there'd be a little bit more of it.
>> Farz: Yeah, that makes sense because Capote started out writing for magazines and like, I.
>> Taylor: Don'T know if you remember this from the 90s, but like, that's how my mom read the Green Mile. The Green Mile came out like every month at the supermarket in like a little tiny book. And then you would just like get more of it. So like that, like, I don't know. I don't know if they still do that. Media so different now. But like it was out like that and in some cases Sybil was put out like that as well. It was put out in like smaller towns and like newspapers, just like piece by piece. So people would be excited to like get the next issue of the paper because it would have more of the book, that kind of thing. So it was this idea of like, In Cold Blood is a true story, but it reads like a novel. So the idea idea that like, it's a novel nonfiction book that you can just read and you're just as in. Just as invested as you would be reading a fiction novel. Because the writing's so good. Yeah, actually the story's told in a certain way.
Sybil wakes up in Philadelphia with no memory of where she is
So what happens in the book, Sybil is. We open up with Sybil, our character. She is in her 30s. She wakes up in Philadelphia. She's walking through, like a warehouse district. She's cold. She's not wearing the right clothes. It's raining. She has no idea where she is. And it's like the 1950s, 1960s, so she doesn't know where she is. She's walking down these streets. Eventually, she finds her way to a bus stop, gets on a bus, takes her to the center of Philly. She's been there before, so she knows where she usually stays when she goes there. So she goes to the hotel she usually stays at and just kind of stands there. Doesn't really know what to do. And she goes into her pockets and she finds a key. So she's like, okay, I am probably staying at this hotel. This is hotel that I'm familiar with. The last thing she remembered was several days before she was at Columbia University, where she is a master's student. So everybody in this story is truthfully very smart. They have many advanced degrees. Like, they're all the women in the story are very smart. And so she takes the key, goes to the room. She's like, I don't know if this is my room. I don't know. This is her hotel. The key works, it opens the door, and she goes inside and she finds some of her things. She also finds a pair of pajamas that are like, very bright, like a little kid would wear. And not something that she would wear, but she can tell they've been worn. And she can find the receipt that says that they have been purchased. So she surmises that she has purchased these, but she doesn't remember. And her whole life has been plagued by times when she has big spaces of losing her memory, waking up somewhere where she didn't be. People remember things. Her saying things that she doesn't remember. People are like, oh, you were like this yesterday, or whatever, like just things that she can't put together. But she thinks that it's normal and thinks that it's kind of part of her life. So she doesn't do anything about it. Like, she doesn't know what to do about it. She just kind of goes along with it. Then we learn about her life. She grew up in a really tiny town. Her parents were Seventh Day Adventists, which is like a very, very unfun faith to be part of. Oh, also, did you hear that the Rapture is going to be today?
>> Farz: Seriously?
>> Taylor: Yeah. It hasn't happened yet, but it's supposed to happen sometime today. I just looked out the window. I don't. I don't see him.
>> Farz: Isn't that the whole impetus for Seventh Day Adventists was, like, it was supposed to happen, and then it didn't happen. And they kept pushing it back, always.
>> Taylor: Forever, till the end of time, because it's not gonna happen. But so, you know, like, she wasn't allowed to read fiction books because fiction is a lie. You know, like, stuff like that. Like, really strict, really harsh. Like, not. No fun to be a kid and be a Seventh Day Adventist. And you're also scared of things like the Rapture and, like, her dad was, like, actively planning for the apocalypse. Stuff like that.
>> Farz: That would be fun. I do want to do that, actually. I do want to build an underground cave filled with, like, cans of chili.
>> Taylor: So she has a tough time in her childhood. She. They find out later that she does have, like, a vitamin B12 deficiency. So she may have. I guess this is going into part that might be true, but, like, when she's a child, she's, like, a little bit on edge. And so her parents do take her to see a doctor, to see a therapist, and she goes. She does meet Dr. Cornelia Wilbur when she's a child, and Dr. Wilbur is, like, just starting out her practice in Omaha. They see each other for a little bit, and then the doctor moves, and her parents kind of lie to Sybil and tell her that, like, the doctor didn't want to see her anymore. And they don't actually make any effort to get her new doctor. She just doesn't. Doesn't see anyone again. So she lives her life, and she has some blackouts. She does. She says that she doesn't remember all of fourth grade. So Sybil will be like, I can't multiply because you learn multiplication in fourth grade. And she remembers in, like, third grade, her grandmother passed away, and she remembers seeing being at her grandma's funeral, and the next thing she knew, she woke up and she was in fifth grade. So she lost, like, a year and a half. So she's saying during that year and a half, she was Peggy, which is a little girl who was constantly. Peggy, constantly, like, 10 or 11. So that girl knows how to multiply. Like, knows how to do things that Sybil does not know how to do because she was the one who actually was in fourth grade when Sybil was not. She was, like, somewhere else. So she, like, has that, like, kind of, like, memory when she is. Is. Is younger. When she is older, like, she's not. She's not, like, an invalid. She becomes an art teacher and art therapist. She's a good artist. She becomes an art teacher and art therapist. She's a good painter. She moves to New York. Her mom passes away, and she finds Dr. Wilbur again. So simple.
Sybil shows up to an appointment as someone else, Dr. Wilbur
Finds Dr. Wilbur, and they start working together. Dr. Wilbur works in New York City out of her apartment. And they start having sessions again. And then one day, Sybil shows up to the appointment as someone else. She comes in, her posture is different, her clothing is different, her voice is different. And she says that she is. She is Vicki. She is this outgoing and smart person who has friends and is sort of like who Sybil wishes she could be. If she could have that kind of confidence, you know, like a more confident version of the same person is Vicki. So Vicky's like, oh, I see Sybil do this, and I think she should do this, or I. Vicky goes on, has friends that Sybil doesn't know. So Sybil will pass people in the hallway at school, and they'll be like, hey. She'll be like, hey. But, like, doesn't remember hanging out with them when, like, Vicky hung out with them. Stuff like that.
>> Farz: Is this the point? We're gonna say this is all nonsense?
>> Taylor: No. So telling what's happening in the book. So that's happening. And then there are others as well. And, like, say other things. Like, Vicki comes in, and Vicki's like, can't you tell that I look different than Sybil? I have blonde hair, or I'm taller than her, or I. Like, I'm like, Sybil's really, really thin. And, like, the actual physical body is very thin. But Vicki feels like she has more of a body. Like, more confident in her body. Also, more personalities arrive as well. So, like, they'll have. Dr. Wilbur is like, okay, let's meet more. So they'll meet every day, and Sybil will be like, I'm sorry I didn't come yesterday. And she'll be like, you did come yesterday, but yesterday you were Peggy. You know, stuff like that. She's starting to tell her what's happening, and Sybil's, like, starting to accept it. But, like, it's upsetting and hard for her to kind of understand what's happening. So also to note, during this time, Sybil's dad is, like, paying for her to live, so she doesn't. She kind of has a job, but mostly she's just, like, in grad school and kind of hanging out. And Dr. Wilbur starts doing things like using hypnotherapy and sodium pentothal to have her kind of bring up repressed memories, which you can also assume where that Goes as well. So she had. Yeah, so she. Some of the memories that Sybil has and confesses to Dr. Wilbur, either as Sybil herself or as one of the other personalities. And this is like, very trigger warning. Child abuse. Whether or not this is true, I'm going to say it out loud. So child abuse. You can pause for a couple minutes or fast forward. She said her mother would do things like obviously, like beat her, and then she would sexually abuse her. She would give her, like, enemas that were freezing cold water just to, like, mess with Sybil's insides. She would hang her upside down. She would tie her down in the kitchen table and insert things into Sybil's private areas, like wooden spoons, a button hook, which is like a very terrifying hook. And do things that eventually would make Sybil the grownup unable to have children because of what her mother had. Had done to her. She would. The mother would put her in a grain silo to try to, like, drown her in the grain. Her mother would take her out on walks with a group of teenage girls and she would make Sybil wait while her and the teenage girls would go into the mom and the teenage girls would go into a. Into the bushes and have sex. And so she was like, corrupting the youth in the whole town.
>> Farz: Wait, is this the. Is this real?
>> Taylor: No, but this is what. This is what is presented in the book Sybil as being real as the reason that Sybil has all these personalities.
>> Farz: Got it. Okay.
>> Taylor: This is what's causing the Sensation in the 70s is like reading the story and being like, holy s***.
>> Farz: Because everything you're saying reminds me of McMartin Preschool, where it's like. It's like, yes. Who believes this?
>> Taylor: Yes, it is very, very toilet in.
>> Farz: The nursery where they were like, flushing kids down the toilet or something.
>> Taylor: Yes, yes. So it's very satanic panic. Very like repressed memory. We say that, but we know that, like, usually those are made up, you know, like that. That the satanic panic stuff is very, very similar to this. She would. Oh, another thing that she said that her mother did has her. Sybil slept in her parents room until she was nine. And she would. Her parents would have sex in front of her. She said that her mom would take her for walks and her mom would like a dog go to the bathroom in other people's yards, like, all over town. And Sybil had, like, watch her mother do that. Just like, terrible abuse that she saw that she heard got from her mother. And it all comes out when Sybil is under on A lot of drugs and being hypnotized. So, like, that's where those memories come in the book. The dad comes to New York, and he's like, yes, the mom was mean, but I didn't know all of these things. So that the mom was diagnosed as a schizophrenic, but he still left Sybil alone with her mom. He didn't realize how dangerous she was. I don't know if that's true or not. Again, this is just what's. What's put in the book as truth. So eventually, Sybil and the doctor work together, and they try to get her life together. Sybil meets a man, but ends up leaving him because she doesn't want to get married and doesn't want to tell him kind of what. What that's happening to her. She has a roommate who is kind of the only other person who really knows about the personalities. And that roommate talks to Dr. Wilbur a lot, and they kind of all work together.
After the book comes out, hundreds of people now have multiple personalities
And eventually, Dr. Wilbur does a thing using the hypnotism to get the personalities to all grow into the same age. So she says, like, Peggy, you're 11. When I count to five, you're gonna be 15. And Peggy will go, okay. Okay, I'll be 15 when you count to five. So she'll count to five and then go, Peggy, you're 15. And she'll go, okay. Okay. I feel. And then she keep doing that until they were all the same age, and then they all were able to kind of start blending together. And then Sybil was one person, and she was cured, and it was a happy ending. Got it.
>> Farz: Keep going.
>> Taylor: No, ask your question. That's the booksable. That's what people were reading and being like. This is a hundred percent.
>> Farz: What I'm getting at is, like, it's easy to, like, be in different times and be like, how do people believe this stuff?
>> Taylor: Yes. Easy for us to be like that. That's dumb.
>> Farz: I guess we would have believed it anyway. Okay, go ahead. Whatever. It doesn't matter.
>> Taylor: But it does. Well, like, I think that, to me, that ties into the. You know, what it. What could your brain do? Who knows? Who knows? You know? So it's not, like, impossible. It's just, like, very unlikely.
>> Farz: Sure.
>> Taylor: I feel. So after the book comes out, guess what? Hundreds of people now have multiple personalities. Because, of course they do. Even though it was, like, very rarely diagnosed before that. Now there's a ton of people, mostly women, who say that they have it. And this. A lot of this is the women are Hysterical era as well. You know, like, it's their periods. It's because they. It's like Freudian. They want to like, have sex with their fathers. Like, all the reasons that women are crazy and not really going. Getting to the root of like, anyone's actual problems.
>> Farz: So they're self selecting into it. Well, society is not forcing them to say, I'm 20 other people. Like, like, nobody's gonna imprint that story into your own brain. It's not a cultural phenomenon. Like, you read a book and you're like, oh, maybe I'm not.
>> Taylor: I think it's exactly a cultural phenomenon because then everybody's saying that it's possible. And then you think things like, well, it's true that I act totally different at work than I do at home, or that when I'm with my friends that act different than I act with my kids. You know, I'm not saying that like I. But I'm saying that that's what was happening to people.
A lot of the facts in this story come from Sybil Exposed
Okay, so the three women. Let me tell you about the. The author, the doctor and the patient. These three women, now we're back to real life, are going to work together, create a company called Sybil Inc. And they're going to make a ton of money. So that kind of part kind of reminds me of the Warrens where they're like, yeah, we write a book about this, you know, and they're going to. The Sybil Exposed opens up with talking about the. The author and how after the book came out, she only wore four coats because she got rich.
>> Farz: Yeah, of course.
>> Taylor: Yeah. So a lot of the facts in these next part of my story are from Sybil Exposed, the book that was kind of, you know, really debunking it. Debunking it from 2011.
Cornelia B. Wilbur is a real psychiatrist who died in 1992
But let me just tell you about them. So the psychiatrist herself is Dr. Cornelia B. Wilbur in real life. This is a real. She's the real person. So she was also quote, unquote, character in the book, but also she's a real. A real psychiatrist. She was born in 1908 and died in 1992. She was born in Cleveland, Ohio. Her parents were like, you're super smart, but you're a girl, so you can't be a doctor. And she really wanted to be a doctor, so she kind of fought against her parents to be able to study what she wanted to study. She got her bachelor's and her master's from the University of Michigan and got her MD there in 1939. When she graduated, there were only eight women in her graduating class. So she's like super smart, very ambitious, wants to be a doctor. And she got married at 25, but she still had her doctor practice. She also had possibly had like a thyroid problem that could have like made her life feel more intense than it was. But they didn't know how to treat thyroid problems and thought that that was all psychological and that was all like just again women being hysterical, which is like a all encompassing for anything that a woman could possibly do. So there's a little bit of that in her history as well. She was really like interested in hypnosis and figuring out what hysteria is. She hypnotized and treated people and really was like convinced that that was something that would, that would work. So in this time the psychology is, you know, it's the 1950s, it's very, again, very Freudian, very post World War II. Lots of things are being blamed on your parents. You know, people are coming home from the war different, and not a lot of people don't know how to handle that. You know, you're throwing someone. We've said this before, like from the flying a plane over Germany to going home, you'd be a shoe salesman, you know, and like, how do you move on with your life? So a lot of people trying to figure out what to do there. A lot of stuff is being blamed on, on your parents, like for the first time officially being blamed on parents. Really in psychology there's a lot of stuff like Walter Mondale later is works for societies to prevent child abuse, which is all like very, very good because there's a lot of children who, especially at the 50s, you know, children are getting beaten by their parents and that sort of thing. But that also then opens up the door for things like the satanic panic and things. So, you know, children confessing to things and having false memories and all the things that happened. But people are just starting to think that maybe your parents have an effect on the way you are as a grown up, which of course they do. You know, have you ever met someone's parents and been like, oh, I get it, exactly why you are the way you are, for better or worse. You know, like, this is. I get it now. Also, women are being forced back home so they had like a little taste of freedom because they like didn't have to deal with their men for a couple of years and they got to have a job. And then like the men come home and they're like, I don't want to, I don't want to stay home and take Care of you.
>> Farz: Like the Nantucket women, where the men would leave for like six months at a time. They're like, yes, great. Every marriage worked out there.
>> Taylor: Exactly like, did I miss you? No. Yeah, sure. Go away again. So there's all that happening while she's getting her. Her degrees. She became a psychoanalyst in 1951, and she first started in Omaha. So that's why when she met Shirley, who is the real Sybil, she met Shirley in Omaha. She worked with Shirley for 11 years in New York City. Again, like, they were way too close. Like, you should not see your therapist outside of therapy. You should not be friends. They should not come to your home unless there's like, a medical emergency. Like, just none of those things should happen. That's very inappropriate. But Dr. Wilbur would go to. Go to Shirley's house and she would do things like in the book, they're like, oh, she took a little bit of sodium pentathol and did ended hypnosis in real life. She would. She became surely. So I'm going to call her Shirley now became a drug addict because she was taking so much sodium pentathol and so many, like, barbiturate drugs that the doctor gave her. She also give her electric shocks at home. Like, that's not allowed. You should not have your home electric shock machine. But she would do things like that and talk to her and get her to. To tell her things. She would take her on vacations. She would give her money. She would. She, like, saw her for free. She's like, you can pay me back later once we sell this book. But, like, I'll see you for free for now. She had the roommate to help document the change, the changes in Shirley. And she kind of poked in pride to get to what she wanted to hear. Like, there are recordings of the sessions. And it is very suggestive on Dr. Wilbur's behalf of being like, so was it Peggy that was talking? Oh, was it Vicki that was talking? Oh, was Vicki here?
>> Farz: You're leading her.
>> Taylor: Very, yes. Very, very leading. Later.
Dr. Wilbur has other inappropriate relationships with patients
Dr. Wilbur has other inappropriate relationships with patients. At one point, she has a hospital. She's like the. In charge of the psychiatric unit of a hospital, and she's a group of psychiatrists that are under her. And like, most of those people will be accused of having inappropriate relationships with their patients. So she was like, teaching other doctors to be inappropriate with their patients. She started an association for multiple personality disorder, which she was one of the first people to like, really, you know, study it. And she took many women into her into her care. And again, a lot of them were like housewives who were exhausted, you know, probably depressed, maybe had other things. But like, she would say, oh, you must have. You must have this. And they would kind of. They would go with it, you know, they would just go with it. Yeah, go ahead.
>> Farz: I was gonna say, like, like, like, yeah, when you put something out there as a suggestion, like, it makes sense that people will just gravitate towards it.
>> Taylor: Right. That makes it the cultural phenomenon that it is. Right. Because people are like, oh, I know there's something wrong with me. Maybe it's this, you know.
>> Farz: Yeah. Anyways, go ahead.
>> Taylor: No, but exactly. That's exactly right, because you're like, when you first hear about it, you're like, this is magical and wild. And then later you're like, if true, how is it true? Like, is it true? Because there's actively another person inside this person's brain who can like, see that person doing things and they try to get out and there's like a. Like those movies with all your emotions in your head. The kid inside out, you know, those.
>> Farz: Like, kids movies, you know, you're probably gonna hate this. Ezra Klein was talking about, like on an episode. I forgot which one it was. It's been like at least like six months at this point. It was something along the lines of, like, are non stop conversations around, like, trauma and the issues we have. And I forgot what the analogy was he drew. I'm like, kind of making this part up. But what he was essentially saying was, like, look, my grandmother survived Dachau and like, watched her whole family die. And she came here, raised a family, like, was happy. Like, she, like. But if you sat there and told her you are traumatized, like, like, your life sucks, everything's bad. Your family's. Yeah. You're gonna force someone down a rabbit hole in their own brain of what they don't. They don't need to go down.
>> Taylor: And I think. Well, I think, like, yes. And I also think that there's definitely a part of her brain, that of Ezra Klein's grandma's brain, who had to survive after that, you know?
>> Farz: Yeah. This is why I don't believe in therapy, by the way.
>> Taylor: Okay, but who, Who. Okay.
>> Farz: If you just, like, if you. I don't know, like, if you indulge a thing that is like a earworm in your brain and you just keep reiterating, like. Like, why is that therapy never ends for people? Why is they always go to therapy for the rest of their lives? Like, are they healing Are they getting better? Or is it helpful to rehash past traumas for the rest of your life until you're dead?
>> Taylor: Or is it better to be like, all therapy is. We graduated from couples therapy, me and Juan.
>> Farz: I also graduated, but I graduated in a very different way than you guys.
>> Taylor: I mean, but then also. Okay, so I also have a dumb thing to say, but there's also an Alan McBeal. That show someone was like, why are you like this? Your problems are so stupid. You know, like, your problems are not being in daca. And she goes, I get that, but they're my problems, you know, so, like, they feel. They still feel to me bad.
>> Farz: That doesn't make them not stupid. I will say, like, so bad. I know, but it's.
>> Taylor: It's.
>> Farz: It's perspective. It changes perspective in gradients of human suffering to like, my problems are, I didn't get a horse when I was like 16. It's, you know, like, totally.
>> Taylor: But if that ruins your life, then that ruined your life.
>> Farz: You could probably walk into the ocean.
>> Taylor: But it. But it's still your. It's still your brain.
>> Farz: Like the DNA. I don't know. The gene doesn't need someone that is traumatized by that. I'm just saying. I'm gonna have to edit all this out, aren't I?
>> Taylor: I don't know. Maybe everybody who didn't get a horse when they were a child is going to be raptured today, so I don't have to.
>> Farz: There you go.
>> Taylor: Stick around until the end of the day. See what happened.
What social media feeds are you getting that resulted in you saying we're probably on very different
>> Farz: What social media feeds are you getting that resulted in you saying that we're probably on very different social media.
>> Taylor: I saw a bunch of people saying that people that I am looking at are making fun of the people who think that the raptors today.
>> Farz: I'm not even. I'm saying I haven't even seen that.
>> Taylor: Well, I don't know. I just saw it today. I didn't get any pre warning about the Rapture, but I guess I wouldn't even know if it happened because I can't see anyone but you right now.
>> Farz: The dog just floats away.
>> Taylor: I can't find Benjamin Franklin's ghost. Where is he anyway?
>> Farz: So much energy for this episode. Go ahead.
>> Taylor: No, but in this case, yes, like, the therapy was, Was, was pushing her to say some things. And I think therapy is good. But I do think that, like, there are cases where, you know, you can be pushed into something. And this is definitely one of those cases. So while she's working with Shirley, she Thought, let's make money off of this. Let's write a book. So she contacts our author, Flora Schreiber. So Flora Schreiber was born in 1918. She died in 1988. She was an English professor and a magazine editor. She was also very, very ambitious. She worked as a psychiatry. Psychology. Psychiatry editor for Science Digest magazine in the 60s. So this was, like, the beginning of talking about mental health publicly, at least right now. She was, like, very flamboyant. She. She's one of those people who had, like, a fake mid Atlantic accent, like, worked on it and, like, made it up and, like, you know, sounded like she was very cultured. You know what I mean? Yeah. She would write articles for, like, Cosmopolitan. She would make so much money. So, like I said, every article she wrote, she would make, like, $3,000, which is like $30,000 in, like, today's money. So you could write, like, six articles, you know, that's all you have to do, you know, so she had, like, a pretty. Like, a pretty sweet job, and she was writing things that are, like, kind of wild. So one of the things that she wrote was about conversion therapy for gay people. And she wrote this whole story about a young man. This is in Cosmopolitan magazine about a young man who was gay. And.
>> Farz: Wait, what year are we talking about?
>> Taylor: 1960.
>> Farz: Got it. Okay.
>> Taylor: And didn't want to be. Didn't want to be gay anymore and went through all this stuff. Turns out at the end, he's not really gay. He goes on a date with a woman. He's like, this is so much better. I was wrong. This is so much better. I don't want to do that. Accompanying the article in Cosmo are pictures of a young man who looks, like, very feminine wearing a suit kind of as his, like, face down. And you assume that, like, that is the man in the story. And they're, like, kind of telling the story and making up this make, like, making you think that, like, this, if I'm a young man, I'm looking at is this gay person from the story, but they're straight now. When, like, the pictures were actually a woman wearing a suit. Like, it was. They didn't even try. They didn't even, like, have. Like, none of it was true. But they were, like, putting it into magazines, like, specifically women's magazines. Like, they were true.
>> Farz: Why?
>> Taylor: To sell magazines. Why does anyone do anything?
>> Farz: Yeah, okay. Yeah, I guess.
>> Taylor: And so that's how Dr. Wilbur and Flora Schreiber met is because of the articles that she was writing. So Dr. Wilbur approached her and said, let's make. Let's write a book. It'll be like a non fiction narrative. And Flora Schreiber was like, great, but I need a lot more things. So she worked with them for seven years and she was like, I need this story to have a good ending. I need all of personalities to become one. I need surely to be fine. I need to see them as different people. So, like, while when you're reading Sybil the book, you're like. She walked in and said, I'm Vicki. I have blonde hair. I look different from Sybil. Can't you tell? Like, that never actually happened because she actually. They put that together for the author. You know what I mean? She's like, I need to look different. The family look different. Or, you know, tell me some stories. And they tell her a story and she'd be like, is that true? They told her one story where they said that Sybil, surely Sybil was like, taken to Holland during the 1940s to help smuggle a Jewish person out of the country. But, like, she couldn't have done it then because Holland was occupied by the Nazis. Like, nothing make. A lot of the stories, like, actually didn't make sense. Like, when she went to the small town, there was no grand silo that she could have been drowned in by her mother. There were no woods that she could have gone to with her mom for her mom to like, molest teenage girls.
There's compelling evidence that Sybil Exposed was written later
Like, and nobody in town actually, like, remember them. Like, yeah, Shirley's mom was like, kind of weird, but she wasn't like. No one was afraid. They weren't like, very. No one would have suspected, like, that level of abuse that they were claiming throughout the story, you know, so. But she did, like, you know, read the notes. She was. There was like, at one point, they gave Shirley and the doctor gave Flora Schreiber a journal that was like, oh, during this time, I did this and I felt this and I woke up as this. But, like, when the author of Sybil Exposed, like, really went down into it, there's like a lot of compelling evidence that it was all written later, you know, even things like that. It was written in a ballpoint pen that didn't exist in 1945, you know, so she couldn't have. It couldn't be your teenage diary. It was like made up afterwards. So they were like, they were giving the author more stuff as she asked for more stuff, like, make it more salacious. And they were. And I think they all just kind of like, knew they were in a big fat lie, but didn't care.
>> Farz: But the author didn't know it was a lie.
>> Taylor: I think that she asked them for things, that she got them enough that she did.
>> Farz: Okay.
>> Taylor: You know what I mean? Like, if I was like, oh, I need exactly this thing, and you were like, oh, give me one second. I have it.
>> Farz: Yeah.
>> Taylor: You know, you'd be like, okay, well, I don't think you just found that. I think you just made it, you know?
>> Farz: Yeah.
>> Taylor: And I think she starts to realize it, but it's kind of too late because she already got an advance for the book and, like, has to rate it. So she. She's like, okay. Even, like, the times that she had her own misgivings about it, she was like, we're gonna keep going. They also did. So when it became her. Her most famous work, it was the number one bestseller for a while. It sold over 6 million copies. Some of the things that I thought was funny. Not funny, but, like, obviously embellish things. Like, some of the stories, like, couldn't. Couldn't possibly have been true. Some of them are. But they, like, added certain things, obviously made the monitor, the mother into the. Into the. Into the villain of the story. They also, like, hilariously, the names that they changed were, like, not very good name changes. Like, they changed their name Maddie to Hattie and, like, Freddie to Teddy. I'm like, that's not even very trying very hard. You know, Like, Sybil's boy. The one boyfriend that she had was a Hispanic man, and they changed his name from, like, Miguel to Ramon. You know, you're like, okay. Like, so. Which means that Shirley Mason. People knew who she was, okay? Because it was easy enough to say. She grew up in this little tiny town. She did this in Omaha. She moved to New York. She was born this year. She's small and skinny and has brown hair. And her mom died this time, and her dad was a. Like, a city worker or something or whatever. Like, if you know this person, you know them. If I read a book about, like, a dude named Mars. Mars, you know, like, I figured out was you, I could be like, okay, that sounds really close to you. So there's. So Shirley had to, like, hide after this, essentially, because people. People were either like, what are you talking about? Or they, like, wanted to hear more from her because Dr. Wilbur and Florida Flora Schreiber went on all the TV shows. They were famous. They, like, were always on TV. They were, like, always in articles. They wanted to do the movie. They wanted to do board Games, which seems a little mean. I want to do a board game. And the three women were all part of that. And they also, like, didn't want to share this ballet with each other. So also, like, they're infighting and trying to get this money and, like, trying to figure this out. And then before, I guess. So that all happened. The movie happened. It became really popular. Everybody kind of went on, like, had a lot of money. Shirley, who is Sybil, and Dr. Wilbur continue to work together and kind of live together again in, like, a really weird way.
Hundreds of women have claimed they have multiple personalities
So just a little bit about Shirley, like, what we know actually is true. Her name is Shirley Mason. She was an only child. She did live with her parents, who were a little bit older, and they were Seventh day Adventist. Adventists. So she didn't have a lot of fun. She did go to see. Go to New York City. She did see Dr. Wilbur later. She was an art teacher. She was, like. Did art therapy. But then when she was exposed, she had to stop talking to her friends. And so she begins to live with Dr. Wilbur, and they stay very, very close. There's times when she, like, wrote letters to people saying it's. None of it's true. It didn't happen. I was just doing what the doctor told me to say. And other times she wrote back and said, of course it's true. So she's kind of going back and forth with it anyway. In the end, the doctor will die before Sybil, but Sybil's the one who, like, takes care of her estate. And they, like, were way too close, maybe. Okay, there's definitely an overtone where that is potentially a thing.
>> Farz: Well, that seems bad if you're someone's doctor.
>> Taylor: A lot of it seems bad. Yeah. I mean, like, if you're. If you're going to therapy and your doctor's coming to your house and dragging the s*** out of you and then telling you all these crazy things that you said, like, that's bad.
>> Farz: Yeah, it reminds me of tell them you love me. Is that what it's called? Tell them you love me? Yeah, that's. You haven't heard that one. The doctor works with, like, mentally disabled people and met this one, and, like, he was. He was inaudible, couldn't do anything. But she said that he unders. As a doctor, she knew that he fell in love with her, and she was crazy. She's a crazy person. It's on Netflix, but. Yeah, it's terrible.
>> Taylor: So terrible. So after, you know, after all this is over, after they've all passed Away. The Sybil exposed book from 2011, you know, talked about a lot of the discrepancies. Some of them also, you know, there was very little evidence for the claims. No one really remembers. And then with the medicine, like, she was trying to do something new, but, like, really pushing the boundaries of, you know, obviously of, like, over drugging. Over drugging the patient. So after this, like I said, hundreds of women said that they had. They had multiple personalities. There are different people in different rooms now. It's called dissociative Identity disorder. DID which, you know, essentially means that dissociation is the compartmentalization of psychological functions such as identity and memory, that are usually integrated. So it's like you remember things differently, but you don't remember everything. Which I think is like, whatever traumatizing thing may. Did or did not happen to people who. Who believe that they have this. Like, they're. They're compartmentalizing parts of their life so they don't have to think about it, you know?
>> Farz: Yeah, it makes sense.
>> Taylor: And it would make sense that your brain could do that to be like, I'm gonna take this memory away from you, you know, so maybe that's how I, like, forget. Forget traumatic things in some cases, you know.
>> Farz: Yeah, maybe so.
>> Taylor: So it's like very chicken or egg. Does it come from abuse? Does it come from the false memories? Are the false memories real? Like, I'm sure sometimes they're real, but a lot of times they're not. And, like, what can be pulled out of your brain or out of your. Out of your imagination, even if you are, like, going through something or if you're not. Again, most. Most of the people who were ever diagnosed with having did were women in the 70s. And then it went kind of down from there. There are certain people who have it now, but they're not like, 100 sure exactly what it is, which is the same with all things in your brain, you know.
>> Farz: Yeah.
>> Taylor: One important note is if you have a demon inside of you, that does not count. That's.
>> Farz: Why not.
>> Taylor: Because a demon is, like, not you. It's the demon.
>> Farz: Okay. Then you go to the exodus route.
>> Taylor: Yeah, yeah. Because, like, that's not. Like the demon isn't part of you. The demon is just, like, using your body as, like, a skin.
>> Farz: That's fun.
>> Taylor: Yeah. So you just. You're just. You just have a demon in you. And then kind of the last bit is, you know, according to research at Johns Hopkins Hopkins Hospital, if people come in and say they have DID and they have these multiple Personalities, usually, if you don't, like, give into it and don't agree with them and don't try to talk to them, they'll forget that they have them, and it'll be something else. That actually is the problem, you know, so they.
>> Farz: Yeah. What I was going to say when you were saying that was maybe it's not that they have them. They have some underlying mental disorder that makes them wish they had this.
You could have repressed memories that could change who you are
>> Taylor: Right. Like you wish that, or. Or is that. Is that it? If you, like, push something, I. I feel like you could push something into a part of you where you don't remember it for real. And if. And that could be that trauma or whatever thing that you have not chosen not to remember could be something that would change fundamentally who you were if you did remember.
>> Farz: Right.
>> Taylor: You know, but.
>> Farz: Indulge it. Just like, whatever you're going to.
>> Taylor: That's kind of the answer with doctors today is like, don't indulge it. Don't, you know, hypnotize someone to be able to do it, you know, and then potentially they are. They won't have it. It'll be something else, and it'll be like, you know, normal trauma.
>> Farz: I forgot maybe it was you that said this, but I forgot it was some parents. I know. It was like, yeah, if your kid gets hurt and you treat it like it's a big deal, like, oh, my God, yeah, that's a big deal. Then they're gonna start freaking out and crying. But, like, if you don't, they're just like, all right, well, that's, like, moving on.
>> Taylor: Yeah, no, it's whole. It's a. And so much of it is. I think. I don't, like. I. I believe that Shirley's mother was, like, you know, potentially schizophrenic. For real. Definitely. Very, very religious, you know, But I don't believe all of the sexual abuse. Like, that seems like, like something that other people would have noticed, you know? But either way, like, the way your parents have such a big effect on who you are, you know?
>> Farz: Yeah.
>> Taylor: So. And, yeah, so you just, I don't know, go to therapy, talk about your parents, which I have done.
>> Farz: Do not go to therapy. Listen, you know what? Just listen. Listen to this podcast. Listen. Listen to us talking. Your therapy.
>> Taylor: No, I'm taking absolutely. No, I have no stake in my life.
>> Farz: But just write to me, and I'll fix your problems. Very interesting. Yeah, you brought back a lot of memories, actually.
>> Taylor: See? Well, there we go. Now you have repressed memories that are coming up. Oh, My God.
>> Farz: You know what's funny is when you. When you were talking, everything's just connecting on everything when you're talking about, like, yeah, they're in too deep at that point. You already got the advance. Just keep going. It reminded me of the Titan submersible. Like, yeah. Let's just say what that guy did. You're into deep. Just keep going.
>> Taylor: And the publisher's like, make it better. Make it more interesting. You know, can you. How do we. Like, how do you tell the story if the personalities don't look different? You know? Like, you can't. You have to be like, okay, well, this is who Peggy. And this. The book also has. Which I'll take pictures of, like, some of the drawings that she did of, like, you know, she did drawings of herself as different people, and they have, like, different art styles, which is kind of fun. Like, when she was a little boy, she, like, drew a picture of herself as a little boy, and she drew, like. I don't know.
>> Farz: Those are actually hers.
>> Taylor: Yeah, yeah, yeah. She has, like, all different, like, kinds of styles that she draws. Like, you know, she drew this hand that's very. It's hard to draw a hand.
>> Farz: That's pretty good.
>> Taylor: It is good, actually. No, actually, you know, she's actually a good artisan. She did. She did have a job as a teacher and an art therapist, so that's kind of fun. This one's a scary drawing she did of church. Does not look intense. Bar off.
>> Farz: Anybody listening is gonna be like, I can't see it.
>> Taylor: I know one person, social, but you know what I mean. So anyway, but if you. I would recommend reading Sybil. I thought it was very fun. Like, it was like, oh, my God, blah, blah. And if I was a housewife in the 70s, I would have been like, holy. You know, I mean, also, I was smoking a cigarette and vacuuming.
>> Farz: Well, it'll be also addicting because it'll be coming out in periodicals. And so, like, you're like, oh, I get to find out what.
Who she is tomorrow, and then who she is the next day gets resolved
Who she is tomorrow, and then who she is the next day and how it all gets resolved. So, like, I can see why you would go down the rabbit hole. But being that doctor, you are just depraved of morality.
>> Taylor: I blame the doctor the most. Yes, yes. The. The writer is a writer. Her job is a kid. Yeah. You know. Yeah. Surely is just a woman trying to figure herself out and kind of, like, found someone who could, like, help take care of her, you know? And then the doctor was like, maybe, you know, overly excited. About what she thought she was finding as well. You know, like, blah, blah. Someone has. Someone's gonna be the first person to find something.
>> Farz: Yeah.
>> Taylor: Or like, not even. Wasn't the first, but at least, like, you know, someone's gonna be. Someone's gonna figure out something about our brains and we're gonna be like, oh, totally. That totally makes sense this whole time, but, like, we can't even imagine right now.
>> Farz: I know. I forgot what I was. I forgot what it was. I was looking at Brian Cox. Is that his name? The astrophysicist? Anyways, he was. They were talking about how, like, the fuel source for the sun and the Earth, it has, like, another couple hundred billion years to go. And they're like, well, what's going to be of humanity then? It's like, humanity's only been around for, like, a couple hundred thousand years. Like, we will almost certainly have become extinct several times over and over and over again. Like, there's probably, like, 15 more iterations of the version of humanity that we consider today by the time that happens.
>> Taylor: Yeah, absolutely.
>> Farz: So in the context of all that, I'm like, what could we possibly. There's so much time left to learn everything.
>> Taylor: Totally wild. I read, like, a quote from, like, Elon, Mom. Musk's Elon. Musk's mom. That was like, ever since he found out that the Earth was going to explode someday, he wanted to get people to Mars. And I was like, you. You learned that in third grade.
>> Farz: We. We have plenty of time. We have plenty of time. We might destroy it anyways through pollution, but I'm pretty sure Interstellar Guide to the Galaxy showed me that astroturfing a whole world is kind of hard.
>> Taylor: It's. I mean, it's not gonna be easy.
>> Farz: It's not gonna be easy or fun.
Do you have any listener mail you want featured on doom to fall pod
Do you have any listener mail?
>> Taylor: I do. I have a fun one from. Morgan was watching Jeopardy. And she sent me a little voice note, which was so funny because I can picture her, like, rewinding it to be able to record it. But Ken Jennings. The question. The answer was Darius the Great, and Ken Jennings pronounced it Darius. And I said, I just also feel like it should be Darius because Darius sounds like someone I know. But also there's, like, you know, Jason and the Argonauts.
>> Farz: I think it's supposed to be Darius.
>> Taylor: Either way, it's not Darius.
>> Farz: Darius. Yeah, fair enough.
>> Taylor: Wait, what did you say?
>> Farz: Jennings? You beat IBM's Deep Blue.
>> Taylor: Also, like, who the f*** knows? I guess. Whatever. But anyway, that was fun. Thank you, Morgan, for thinking of us. And if you have any other ideas or suggestions or little tidbits, email us doomtofillpodgmail.com. and we're at doom to fell pod.
>> Farz: At all the socials, every single one of them. Thank you.
>> Taylor: I know you don't read old paperbacks, but the back of old paperbacks, it has a way to order more books. And it's so fun. Each one's like a dollar 25, and you need to just rip out this page and check the ones you want and mail this little card in with like a check, and then they'll send it to you. I love it. $0.15 per copy for postage and handling.
>> Farz: That's kind of a nicer time, wasn't it?
>> Taylor: Yeah, you had to, like, wait. We've also at work, we've been watching like, 90s MTV, just, like, hours of it. Because you can watch, like, MTV just, like, hours of music videos and news and commercials. And a lot of it is like, oh, there's a competition. You have to send in the postcard, you know, with like, your answer. And then you're gonna win something, like a CD player or something. Just always hilarious and fun.
>> Farz: Columbia Records definitely got me with that $0.01 for 12 CDs or whatever thing.
>> Taylor: Yeah, fun.
>> Farz: Anyway, we can go ahead and cut things off. Are you good, Taylor?
>> Taylor: I'm good.
>> Farz: Sweet. Thank you. And we'll go ahead and cut it.