Today let's talk about the 'murder' of James Maybrick - a businessman in Liverpool in the 1880s who loved to medicate with poisions. A good, what-doesn't-kill-me-makes-me-stronger kind of guy. James's young American wife, Florence, will be accused and tried of murder. It's a story of unmet expectations, Victorian medicine, and a very strong case for prison reform, even well over 100 years later. Florence's book is avaialble via the public domain - https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/55773
Today let's talk about the 'murder' of James Maybrick - a businessman in Liverpool in the 1880s who loved to medicate with poisions. A good, what-doesn't-kill-me-makes-me-stronger kind of guy.
James's young American wife, Florence, will be accused and tried of murder. It's a story of unmet expectations, Victorian medicine, and a very strong case for prison reform, even well over 100 years later.
Florence's book is avaialble via the public domain - https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/55773
Hi Friends! Our transcripts aren't perfect, but I wanted to make sure you had something - if you'd like an edited transcript, I'd be happy to prioritize one for you - please email doomedtofailpod@gmail.com - Thanks! - Taylor
Taylor: How's your weekend going? It's been fine. How are you? Good. I did a lot of yard work
>> Taylor: In the matter of the people of the State of California vs. Orenthal James Simpson, case number BA097.
>> Farz: And so my fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you. Boom. Taylor. How are you?
>> Taylor: Good. Little sticky from this drink I just poured myself but I'm good.
>> Farz: Did I steal my boom from Dan Carlin?
>> Taylor: His is like a boom, like a sound. And that the end.
>> Farz: It's a sound. It's a sound that's in the end.
>> Taylor: He doesn't say the word boom. Could you imagine?
>> Farz: He could, he could. It'll be fine. How, how are you doing? How was, how's the past since last time we talked? How's it.
>> Taylor: It's been fine. We have our friends over this weekend. They just left. Look what I printed for my sister in law for her birthday. This pretty vase.
>> Farz: Man, you are on a tear.
>> Taylor: I know. I just moved it next to the window so I don't like die of microplastics but I probably will.
>> Farz: We probably all, we all have microplastics in our brain.
>> Taylor: Yeah. You know, but, but yeah, no, it was good. How about you, how's your weekend?
>> Farz: Good, good. I did a lot of yard work. I'm pretty sure I dumped a bunch of fire ants on my head and yes, it's just exhausting. I actually just woke up from a nap so.
>> Taylor: Good for you.
>> Farz: That's, that's where I'm at.
>> Taylor: Do you have ant bites on your head?
>> Farz: I can't, I don't know but I, I, I was trying to cut this tree branch down that was like hanging over me and as I was cutting into it all these ants started like pouring out of it. I was like oh my God, I gotta get rid of this thing. And then I have a bunch of bites all over my neck. So I assume there's probably some in my, in my ears and in my brain at this point. So. It'll be good, it'll be fine.
>> Taylor: Yeah, good for them. They can start taking over. They can do your job. Yeah.
>> Farz: Yeah. So anywho, that's, that's what's going on in my world.
Doomed to Fail brings you historical disasters and failures
Do you want to introduce us? Yes.
>> Taylor: Hello everyone. Welcome to Doomed to Fail. We bring you historical disasters and failures and I am Taylor, joined by phars.
>> Farz: I'm joined here with Taylor and today we are going to get a tailor oriented story that's true.
>> Taylor: I'm ready.
>> Farz: Is this about a vintage house or something? Vintage?
>> Taylor: Yeah, it's a Victorian murder.
>> Farz: There it is. That's what it was.
>> Taylor: Yes.
>> Farz: Victorian vintage. I was close it's close.
>> Taylor: Close enough. Yes. I promised a Victorian murder, and I have one. So I. Oh, my God. I made my dress because it's a disaster. So this one I'm going to call. This is one. One of the things this is called is the Valentine, which is a company. The Valentine meat juice incident.
>> Farz: You broke out, right? When you said the main part. You said meat. Meat juice.
>> Taylor: Meat juice, yeah.
>> Farz: You didn't break out. Wow, that's disgusting. Okay, let's hear it.
>> Taylor: I said meat juice, which I'm pretty sure means bone broth. It's all about brain broth.
>> Farz: Okay.
>> Taylor: You know, but we'll get. We'll get to that. All right. Get to that.
Florence Elizabeth Chandler Maybrick is accused of murdering her husband
So this is the case of Florence Elizabeth Chandler Maybrick being accused and convicted of killing her husband, James Maybrick. Ready?
>> Farz: Totally.
>> Taylor: I read a book called Did She Kill Him? I didn't read all of it. It was tedious. I couldn't finish it. So I was like, I don't know what to do. Then I found that Florence herself wrote a book. It's called Mrs. Maybrook's Own Story, My Fifteen Lost Years, which kind of turns into a prison reform story, which is super interesting. So we'll get to all of that. But that's what I read as my, like, main source.
In 1889, it is the year after the Jack the Ripper murders
So I'm going to set the scene for you. It is 1889, and we are in England. This is, as you'll remember, the year after the Jack the Ripper murders. Yeah, that's what. That's the vibe that we're going with around.
>> Farz: I feel like that was probably the vibe for centuries there.
>> Taylor: Yeah, yeah. Like, speaking of, like, microplastics, it's actually the coal dust that's going to kill you in this time, you know.
>> Farz: There you go.
>> Taylor: Like, everyone has black lung or the
>> Farz: random excrement that's being dumped in the middle of the streets.
>> Taylor: There's so many. So many ways to die. So we talked about during the Jack the Ripper time in our Jack the Ripper episode about how awful it was to be poor in this time that you were just like. You had, like, one outfit and you slept on the streets and you were covered in. And coal dust.
>> Farz: Please.
>> Taylor: Red ants, everything terrible. So it's also not great for everyone. Like, really, there's no one that it's great for. You know, like, even Queen Victoria is, like, doing weird. Like, you know, there's no plumbing. Like, nothing. Is no one living there. The honestly luxurious life that we have with climate control in our houses and our f****** toilets. Of flesh, you know.
>> Farz: Yeah. Didn't they think Henry VIII was gay because he showered once a month?
>> Taylor: Maybe. Yeah, something like that. Like we are, we are, we are quite lucky to have this access to water for cleanliness, among other things. But. So the Mabricks are middle class. But they are like middle class where. Which is not. Not only in this. In Victorian times, it is very relevant today as well. But a middle class level where you're in a lot of debt to maintain your status. You know, like you are like renting a house that's too big for you. Maybe you like leasing a vehicle is too big. You are just like in debt. But you're not going to stop buying the things that are status symbol things you don't want anyone to know.
>> Farz: Free time. This is how I know I'm old. Every time I drive by someone in a nice car, all I can think of is payments.
>> Taylor: Yeah. Oh, God, totally.
>> Farz: Like, it's not a flex anymore. Like it's a really. Yeah, same thing.
>> Taylor: Yeah. And I know that like gas is obviously going through crisis at the moment and it's a lot in California, but like my. And my car takes a lot. It's a, it's a Subaru, but there's like, you know, people in like the big huge trucks and such. But I'll get to the gas station. Like the person in front of me has spent like 150, you know, Taylor,
>> Farz: there was one truck that I knew I was never gonna get. It was gonna be way too stupid, way too expensive. But it was like I played these little fantasy games myself and kind of play it out.
>> Taylor: Sure.
>> Farz: It has this insane V8. It gets like 10 miles to the gallon. I did the math on like how big the tank is and how much mileage you get out of the tank. It would in Texas, so two and a half exit for where you are. But in Texas it would be $140 to drive 200 miles.
>> Taylor: Oh my God. Yeah.
>> Farz: Insane.
>> Taylor: That's insane.
>> Farz: Yeah, don't do it. Anyways.
>> Taylor: Good. I'm glad you didn't.
>> Farz: Yes.
>> Taylor: Because it's wild. There is a. In that show Tacoma FD that I told you to watch by the Super Trooper guys.
>> Farz: Yeah.
>> Taylor: There's an episode where they buy. One of them buys a big truck and he thinks it has great gas mileage because the other guy keeps filling it with gas every night so that he like thinks that he's not. Then it gets him when he finally. When he likes. That's like when he's like in like the trial, when he finally buys it, he realizes it gets like, you know, four miles a gallon or something. Hilarious. And it's funny. So, yeah, so this is, this is. That's who they are. They're keeping up appearances and it sucks. And it's very tense because they actually don't have the money that they're pretending to have.
Who is accused of or potentially to be Jack the Ripper is James Maybrick
And then speaking of Jack the Ripper, one of the people who I didn't even. Wasn't even mentioned in my episode, but who is accused of or potentially to be Jack the Ripper is James Maybrick, our victim in this story. This is because later someone in Liverpool produced like a diary. And in that diary it was like, I'm James Daybrick. I'm Jack the Ripper, essentially. And then they like tested it. And like, it's not. It's not that there's another thing with like maybe a pocket watch that belonged to him. And then maybe next to one of the murders, there was an F and an M on the wall. She thought that might be about his wife Florence, like, her initials. But like, that's all just like beyond speculative. And like, he's not Jack the Ripper, but he's kind of a weirdo, which is why he was accused of being Jack Ripper, you know?
>> Farz: Yeah, being a weirdo will get you in a lot of trouble.
>> Taylor: Yeah. So he's also accused, I think maybe is the wrong word, but like speculated to also maybe have been. Because as I'll tell you, James, our victim, traveled a lot. But in a few years before Jack's the Ripper, in Austin, where you are, there was an ax murderer called the Servant girl Annihilator, who acts murdered eight girls in Austin.
>> Farz: I didn't know about this.
>> Taylor: Did you know about that?
>> Farz: Yeah.
>> Taylor: So they speculated that could have been James as well. But I don't think he was either of those people. But again, also, every man was like super creepy then, right? Everyone had a mustache, everyone over their mouth. You know what I mean? I hate it.
Liverpool joined the Confederacy side during the US Civil War
Okay, so that's the time that we're in England. Kind of awful. And then specifically we're in Liverpool, which is a port town in like the northwest dish of England. It's quite far from London, if you want. Today, if you want to go from London to Liverpool, it's a five hour bus ride or two hours on the train. So it's not like the capital, but it's a big port city. And it's also, at this point in the 1880s, a big cotton trading area. So they trade a Lot with the United States, specifically in cotton. And so much so that Liverpool joined the Confederacy side during the US Civil War. Well, yeah, they, like, put out a letter. They were like, england may be for the Union, but we really love this cotton. You guys are producing cheaply, so good luck.
>> Farz: Do they send soldiers?
>> Taylor: No, but they announced that they were like.
>> Farz: So it was like a meaningless. It was basically somebody just, like, writing, like an op ed. A letter to the editor.
>> Taylor: Yes. Of war. Right, Exactly. So James is in the cotton trade, and he travels and sells cotton. There's probably more involved in that, but, like, that's the job. He's a cotton businessman. Other things that happen to be fashionable during this time. So there's. Cotton trade is happening. One thing that is kind of common is American women marrying European men. And then so, like, there's, like, articles and things where, like. Like, of course, like, half the men are mad about it. They're like, well, she deserves what happens to her. She goes over there and, you know, marries a European man. Like, cool. It could be cool. You get to go to Europe. You get to marry a rich older guy and have maids. Like, that doesn't sound bad. Like, I'm not mad. I'm not mad at that. But then the downside is a lot of these marriages happen in, like, two weeks, which isn't great because you never know who you're marrying, you know?
>> Farz: And then, like, we've had some experience on that front.
>> Taylor: Yeah. So, like, you. You do. You do want to know someone a little bit before you get married? I would advise to get to know someone before you marry them. I don't know, but that's. That's me. So, you know, that's. That's something that's happening, and that's happening around this time.
James Maybrick got malaria in 1874 and was treated with arsenic
So now we have our couple again, James and Florence. So James Maybrick was born on October 24, 1838. again, he became a cotton trader and traveled a lot. In 1874, he was in Virginia doing work stuff, and he got malaria and was treated with arsenic. And, boy, does James love arsenic. He loves these, like, potions and tinctures and, like. I get it. I love that, too. Like, I have this little thing here. This is like a little bottle, you know what's in here? It's olive oil. I use it on my cuticles, but it's cute as s***. It makes this noise. It has a little dropper, you know, Like, I like. I like this vibe. It's cute. It makes me feel a little bit witchy. And that's what James loved. He loves little potions, little tinctures, and that's what medicine is at this point. You know, it's like arson, get you high.
>> Farz: Like, why would you like arsenic?
>> Taylor: I think it, like, dulls your senses. So. And it's like, it's not just arsenic like his. He likes, you know, like, hand washing is 20 years old. Like, it's not like, you know, medicine is. Is whatever, brand new at this time. And so it's not even. It's not just arsenic, but, like, his vibe is like, literally a little arsenic keeps you healthy. It's good for my tummy. It's good for my complexion. It's not. It's like, not good for you. So any little tonic that had, like, opium or lidocaine or any other poisons, like, he. That's the kind of stuff that he vibed with. And that's kind of what was recommended by a lot of doctors at this point. They're probably still, like, bleeding people, you know.
>> Farz: That was like my favorite scene from that Winchester Winchester movie. Remember that movie?
>> Taylor: Yeah, that movie's good.
>> Farz: Yeah, yeah. When the. When the doctor who was there to evaluate Ms. Winchester was like, in his room and he was just, like, doing a bunch of laudanum and cocaine and he was a doctor.
>> Taylor: Yes, that's exactly. That's exactly what James is doing. He's doing so many drugs, and he's like, I feel better. Because I'm sure you feel better when you're like, super high and you feel bad because, like, you're poisoning yourself. And like, I think I say this again, but you should. Even today, you shouldn't have a prescription from one doctor and one from another doctor and not tell the other ones about it, you know, or without. People do that at least, like, Google what those two things are together, you know? But James is going to, like, random doctors and getting random tinctures of, like, random stuff. So that's not great. But. Oh, let me tell you what arsenic is, because I don't know what it is. It's an element. It's on the periodic table as. As Its atomic number is 33. Its atomic mass is 74.92. I don't know what that means, but that's exciting. It's a metalloid, which means it's both metal and non metal. I wrote, like me, It's solid at room temperature, and it's used for manufacturing somehow. So, like, they use it when, like, making lasers and things that can do something that I don't understand, but that's what it is. And it also used, like, a little in this time. It's used a little bit in, obviously, poisons for, like, rats and. But it's also used in, like, medicine, but at a very, very small level. Like, in some ways, it's like, this will purge you of your biles, you know, and you're like, well, yeah, I threw up because they just took a bunch of poison.
>> Farz: Yeah. This is an era when they were, like, drinking mercury for health reasons.
>> Taylor: He drank mercury too. Like, I'm sure that's on his list of things that he. That he drank. So James is a bachelor, but he's a lot of girlfriends. He spends his time between Liverpool and Virginia. He has a common law wife named Sarah Ann. I think she. I'm not sure if she lives in Liverpool or Virginia, but there also is a rumor that she had five of his children. So, like, he's definitely, like, not alone. He's, like, sleeping around.
James Chandler Maybrick meets Florence on a ship in 1880
So it's 1880, and James is on a ship to England from the U.S. he's 42 years old, and he meets a girl named Florence. She's 17. So he's a lot older. Yeah. So Florence Elizabeth Chandler Maybrick was born on September 3, 1862, in Mobile, Alabama. Her dad was a banker who died before she was born, and her mom married three times. Her third husband is a German baron that she married in 1872. So she spent a lot of time in Europe. Like, her mom was, like, pretty well off with this, like, minor royalty guy from Germany, and her mom lived in Europe. In Florence's book, she talks about her lineage being from, like, you know, Americans who've been there for a very long time. And also says that she's distantly related to Salmon Chase, who is a man who was on Abraham Lincoln's cabinet, and he's arguably the worst person in Abe Lincoln's cabinet. If you've read Team of Rivals. But still cool that she's, like, somehow related to him. So she meets James on this boat, and of course, again, it's very, like, romantic. You're, like, cool, older man. And I think it's a little bit of a case where they both assumed the other person was richer than they were.
>> Farz: Great, great situation to enter into, which
>> Taylor: is a great start to any love story.
>> Farz: Nothing's gonna go wrong there.
>> Taylor: Yeah. So because she's with her mom, and her mom's a baroness, you know, like, all these things. So they both think the other one's richer than they are, but they, you know, meet on this Boat. It's romantic. And they decide to get married. And they marry a year later, and they rent a house in the suburb of Liverpool. So Flo has gone from being, like, a young debutante woman in the United States to living in, like, a big house that she knows they can't afford with a couple. A couple maids and, like, servants in a suburb of Liverpool. So she's super isolated from, like, everybody else, you know, he knows they can't
>> Farz: afford it because she knows this guy has no money or because she knows that he expects her to have money.
>> Taylor: She knows by this time that he doesn't have as much money as he said he did because he does stuff like gets mad at her for spending money. She also, like, buys a bunch of stupid stuff. She gambles. Like, she isn't good with money either. And, like, she says things like, we should rent a smaller house. And he's like, we absolutely can't. We have to run this mansion, you know, because we need to show people that we have this money that we don't have. So she's alone a lot. They have two kids. James, who's born in 1882, and Gladys, who is born in 1882. 86. James has a couple brothers. There's one older brother or two. They're both younger. One's Matthew, one's Edwin. I think Edwin is, like, significantly younger than James, and him and Florence hang out often enough that it's a rumor that, like, they have an affair, But I'm not sure if they did or not. But either way, like, I feel like you would be close to someone closer to your age.
>> Farz: Right?
>> Taylor: You know, so again, she knows about his affairs. He has many affairs, and she knows about them. So she knows this is happening, like, while she's kind of, like, stuck in the house. I wrote, one of the mistresses has at least. At least five of his kids. Like, calm down.
>> Farz: What is wrong with you?
>> Taylor: So in 1887, she's like, okay, I've had enough. I don't want to be in this marriage anymore. It's not working out for, like, a multitude of reasons. She has. She has an affair, probably with a businessman named Alfred Brierly. And they write letters back and forth, but Alfred's a little bit like, get me out of here. And he's like, you know what? Going to leave. And he, like, leaves and goes to Europe for, like, a year. Just like, I don't want to be a part of this problem anymore. So Florence is able to afford a couple things that her husband doesn't know about. Because she can get money from her mom. Because her mom does have a bit of money. So she's able to get money from her mom because she's like, she's. Florence is gambling, like she's betting on horses over Telegraph, which is fun and bad. When you said you got.
>> Farz: You got a real problem, you got a real gambling problem. I mean, this is, this is the thing that the less friction there is.
>> Taylor: Yeah.
>> Farz: The more people do it, which means the more friction there is. You really want to be doing this thing.
>> Taylor: Yeah. Yeah. So. So she's. So she. But she gets some money from her mom and she takes a trip to London to try to get a lawyer to get a divorce. And like, it's hard for women to get divorces, like in this time and like in a lot of places still. And she goes to London for a few days, comes back, James is p*****. He, like, knows that she went to, like, do something, but he doesn't know what she did. So he puts an ad in the paper that was like, did anyone see my wife doing something weird? Give me a call. Which is hilarious. What she was doing was meeting with lawyers. So they get in a fight. When she gets home, he definitely punches her and gives her a black eye. This. That's the only, like, recorded time of physical abuse. But that can't be the only time. If it happened once, it, you know, probably happened before then. She, the cook and the nurse are there, like during this fight and they like bring her back in the house when he tries to kick her out in the middle of the night. And eventually, like, she decides to stay even though he changes his will that she's not going to get any money when he dies. It'll go to the kids and she'll get like his like monthly pension from his like, work, which is a little bit. But like, not everything that could be given to her after he dies if he like liquidated everything.
James and Florence reconcile in 1888 and things settle down
So there's a lot going on. But they reconcile, they both remove their divorce petitions and then things settle down. So it's like 1888 and they're back to the status quo, which is like still him with his girlfriends and all those things, but back to normal. James is only 50, by the way, but he's like, seems much older because she still seems so young and like all those things, I mean, they were
>> Farz: also probably older timeline wise. That's probably 1889.
>> Taylor: 50, which is a rough 50.
>> Farz: Which is a rough 50. That's like a. You may as well be a modern 90. Yeah.
>> Taylor: So it's April 1889, and Florence is planning to go to a fancy ball with James's brother Edwin, because she likes them as their friends, whatever, they're gonna go. And she's excited about that because she's still very young and wants to go out. The nurse. The nurse is named Alice Yap. And so she's the one who's like taking care of the kids like that. That's what I mean by nurse. And like a nanny. And she hates Florence. Like, they do not get along. And the. The nanny tells one of the brothers of James that like, you know, she's going out with other brother. And that brother gets mad and everyone's kind of mad each other and suspicious of each other, all those things. And while that's going on, James is getting physically very unwell. He has a doctor named Dr. Fowler who has a thing called like, to talk to, speak to, like tinctures and such called Fowler Solution, that was basically arsenic and lavender. And he said it, said it could cure everything by making you throw up. Which is like not.
>> Farz: Not true and not science.
>> Taylor: And there are many doctors in and out, and some of them are new to James. So like a new doctor goes in and he's like, bro, what is this? You know, because like next to his bed is 100 little bottles. You know, it's like if you, you know, saw a bunch of those, like prescription bottles in someone's house, you'd be like, dude, like, stop doing this. You know, or.
>> Farz: Or in modern times in Austin, it would be someone who has a subscription to yoga, Pilates, crossfit, a cold tank in a sauna.
>> Taylor: Yeah, yeah, but calm down. Yes, take it down, take it down. So self medicating a ton. And the doctors can see this again. You shouldn't have two doctors who don't talk to each other, or you don't like cross reference medication. And in Florence's book that I read, like the second half is just evidence that says that like, James is doing this to himself and that he was like, you know, obsessed with taking these medications. And like, you know, this one makes me happy, this one makes me sad, this one makes me throw up, this one makes my legs feel numb. You know, like he's doing all these different things. But there is a thing that never went to court. But there's a man named Mr. Blake who was doing experiments with arsenic making, tried to make a cotton alternative out of like plant fibers and arsenic. It didn't work. But he had a bunch of leftover arsenic and so in February 1889, he says that James asked him for it. He said, can I have this? I love arsenic. It's not fave. You have extra. Can I have it? And Mr. Blake was like, okay, like, that's weird, but you can totally have it. And he gives it to him. Then, as you'll see, James starts to get worse and worse and worse. And by the time we're to the point where James passes away, Mr. Blake's son is lost at sea. So Mr. Blake is consumed with his son being lost at sea. So any evidence he could have given during any sort of trial, he doesn't give because he's busy, right? So, like, the court never knows that that happens. But to me, that means James is in possession of a lot of arsenic and he's secretly taking it. That's kind of what he does, is, like, he takes it and says he didn't, and it kind of does again. So it's getting worse. He overdosed on something. Wikipedia said that Florence gave him a double dose of strychnine, but, like, I didn't see that anywhere else. So I don't know if that's true. He or he, like, overdose in some way. And he's bedridden, his arms hurt, his legs hurt, he can't walk, he can't sleep, he can't stand. He wants powders and droplets. He can't eat. And this is one of the things that he does eat is the Valentine meat juice, which is, I think, just bone broth. So he eats, like, meat juice and milk, which is normal. I don't want that at all. But, like, maybe you want chicken soups. Like, I get the broth thing, but I just. The word meat juice, I don't love. So because Florence is administering the meat juice to James with the two. Like, with the maid and the nurse, they think that she put extra arsenic in the meat juice, and that's what made him even sicker. But there are meat juice bottles everywhere, and I'm sure they're not being refrigerated in any way, shape or form, you know? And there's other bottles everywhere. And the maids will say things like, they saw Florence pouring a smaller bottle into a larger bottle. She's like, well, I was just getting the last of the mix out, mixing it with water or things smell elements. I don't know if is true, but we know that's what arsenic smells like from criminal shows. I don't know. We know that.
>> Farz: Hold on. You're. You're saying this is the like, did they know that he was. Do they know that arsenic killed him?
>> Taylor: Later they're going to say arsenic killed him.
>> Farz: So at this time, people knew that arsenic was poison?
>> Taylor: Yes, but they still. People still took a little bit of it at a time.
>> Farz: Okay.
>> Taylor: Like, anything is poison if you take too much of it.
>> Farz: I know, but poison, it's like if I were to eat plutonium, like a little bit of it doesn't really matter. It's going to kill me, Right?
>> Taylor: Yeah.
Florence is accused of murdering her husband James with arsenic
But you can have a little bit of arsenic and not die.
>> Farz: Okay, we'll test that theory. We'll see if we. We'll see if we record next week.
>> Taylor: Are you taking arsenic right now? I'm certainly not, no.
>> Farz: But I'm gonna. I'm gonna figure out how much of it you can take, what the. What the safe amount is.
>> Taylor: So those things, like, feel. Feel suspicious. We know arsenic is involved is in the house. Like, we know they have it. And like, however, whether James has it hoarded somewhere or whatever. And then another thing is that. Remember how Florence was going to go to that ball with Edwin?
>> Farz: Yeah.
>> Taylor: She wants to go to this party and she wants to look really pretty, so she. There's this face wash that she really likes, but it's expensive. And guess what the face wash has in it.
>> Farz: Plenty of arsenic.
>> Taylor: Plenty of arsenic. So she doesn't want to buy it, but she wants to wash her face with this stuff to make her look, I don't know, prettier. And so she soaks flypapers, which have arsenic on them apparently to kill flies in water to seep out the arsenic for her face wash. Like, that's insane. That's also happening at the same time while her husband is sick and he's taking medications that are prescribed and not prescribed and asking for things. And there's a meat juice and all this stuff is happening around the house. There's a bowl of fly paper.
>> Farz: Isn't she like 22 years old at this point?
>> Taylor: Yeah, she's not. Not. She's like a young woman. He said.
>> Farz: Yeah.
>> Taylor: So James dies on May 11, 1889. I think he died because he was taking too many drugs and too many weird a** things and he was like putting this together and just like ruined his. His body. I do not think he was murdered. I think he was like. If anything, he was murdered by like being a product of his time, but. But not like intentionally. He probably had some like anxiety, you know, that made him do these things. But because of all the arsenic that was in the house and the Fly papers and the almost divorce and all the affairs and the money issues and all these things. His brothers say he was murdered by Florence. She definitely. She definitely killed him. So they accused her of murder and she's arrested. They do. Like, they immediately. They lock her in a room and they're like, you can't see him, you can't do anything. You can't see your kids. So she stays there until they do an autopsy on James. They do find arsenic in his body, but we're talking like a percentage of a gram, like very small amount of. Of arsenic. Not enough to kill someone, but like a little bit, which we would expect because we know that it's in the medicines that he was taking. Right. But it doesn't even sound like scientifically he died of like just an overdose of arsenic. Like, it was just. He died of like a whole bunch of different things that is never really conclusive. So. But because they find that tiny bit of arsenic, despite the fact that we know he was taking arsenic on his own, they arrest her and they take her. They take her away. Florence will never see her children again after this. So her husband's dead, they take her to jail. Her kids are like little when this happens. They're like three and six. And James, they get adopted by like an aunt, James Junior. Her son becomes an engineer and when he's 29, he dies because he mistakes a glass of cyanide for a glass of water. Doesn't that sound insane?
>> Farz: Yeah, this is. That's a. Yeah. There's a lot of common threads here.
>> Taylor: I don't know what to do with that. But that's thing that her daughter Gladys lives until 1971, so. But she never saw her again. So they take Florence to jail and there's a speedy trial. Basically what the prosecution says is like, she thought he was going to divorce her. She was sick of the affairs, she wanted him gone. And I wrote, that's her. I want him gone too. Like, I don't like him, but I think that's more of his personality than like anything, you know, he just kind of sucked. So during the trial, her lawyers are super confident because they're like, he wasn't a. He, like, wasn't killed by arsenic poisoning. Like, he was killed because he was sick and was taken away.
>> Farz: Arsenic. Cumulative though, isn't it? Like, it's. If you're testing what's in your gut,
>> Taylor: then that's a good question.
>> Farz: It could be, because that's the thing when you were. Well, I was trying to be funny about like, take a little bit of it. I. I thought the reason why it's bad is the same reason why chocolate's bad for dogs. If you have a little bit of chocolate. If they have a little bit of chocolate, it's not bad. But the problem is they can never process out the toxins within it. And so every time you have a little more, it just adds, ads, adds, and eventually it, like, gets to a tipping point.
>> Taylor: He had so little in his system.
The jury deliberated for 38 minutes before deciding that Florence was guilty
>> Farz: Yeah, that's what I'm wondering. I'm wondering if, like, that is something you have to, like, test with, like, modern technology to determine what's in his actual system versus what's in his stomach.
>> Taylor: That's a great point. Like, imagine what we would know if it was now, you know, because, like, they. It was like a man with his bare hands taking out his intestines and, like, looking for arsenic. I don't know.
>> Farz: Yeah, and he probably also had, like, another bucket of guts next to that that he probably mixed and mingled and
>> Taylor: he's, like, eating the sandwich. Like, I don't know. There's so many things that, like, could be happening at the same time. So. Yeah, good point. I don't know. But they're saying that he died of. Of arsenic poisoning in whatever way, but that what was in his gut was not enough to kill him if he. According to their. However they calculated that, you know, so the jury. There's a couple issues. So the jury, of course, is all. All men who just saw a young woman with an old husband. So they, like, were suspicious of her. The judge himself is Judge James Fitz. James Stephen. Wow, that is a name. James Fitz James Stephen. A lot of firsties in there, and he's not well. So he will die and retire, Retire and die, like, right after this trial. And he was very famous in his lifetime as, like, a very good judge, all these things, but he basically had dementia by this point. And he was, like, talking a bunch of weird s*** about Florence in front of the jury. And, like, that made the jury definitely, like, sway towards her being guilty. They chart. They. The jury said she was guilty. They charged her to death. They deliberated for 38 minutes. So it was, like, super fast. And everybody was shocked because they were like, no one thought that she was going to get convicted at all. She says, quote, my Lord, everything has been against me. I am not guilty of this crime. So she gets sent to jail to be hanged, but there's a lot of people on her side. She's kind of, like, on death row. And, you know, Dealing with, with all of that. She's alone, obviously, like, and doesn't have, like, any, like, support, doesn't know what's going on. And the day before she's supposed to be executed, they tell her that instead it's been changed to life in prison. It also could be because, like, a lot of people both in America and in the UK were like, writing letters, being like, this trial wasn't fair, the judge wasn't well, the evidence isn't there. All the. All those things, like, in her. In her on her behalf. So she, like, one of the people who wrote on her behalf, like the Vice President of the United States at the time, like, a lot of people were like this. This needs to be retried at the very least. So they changed her sentence from death to life. And life means 20 years in, in this case. And you can get time off with, like, good behavior. Like, every year you get like, a certain number of months off. If you don't, like, do a certain number of things bad, all of that. So her first nine months, she's in solitary confinement. And she makes some really great points that I know. I know that this is like 1800s England and, like, things are very different. But I also feel like a lot of it, it's like the prison system itself, like, a lot of it is like, you know, meant to dehumanize you and like, how sad, how rough it is for solitary confined confinement because, like, it takes away your ability to communicate with anybody because you, like, barely use any words, you know, and you, like, are living this, like, monotonous same day to day, often with, like, out light. And like, her, the way it was for her is she had, like, to wake up at a certain time and then all day long she had to. She had to work. She had to sew one shirt a day. And if she didn't do it, then, like, she would be in trouble for, like, not doing it because she spent, you know, 23 hours in her cell, a little bit of time in, like, the chapel because she was super religious and able to go to chapel. And she speaks to, like, her faith, helping her through this a lot in her book. But then also, like an hour outside where they have to. They get to walk around like a little, you know, like, concrete courtyard, and they have to do it no matter what. So even if it's like raining, which is raining all the time because you're in England, they still have to walk outside in the rain for an hour a day. So like, they also are sick all the Time. Just like, stuff like that. Yeah, Terrible. She also, like, the cells didn't have any heating in entire time she was there. Of course. Yeah. So she did that for nine months. Then she went to a working prison where she worked in a kitchen until she, like, physically couldn't do it anymore. She's like, like 100 pounds and she's, like, small. You know, she's trying to do all these things.
Florence talks about the pressure of constantly being watched and monitored
Also, another thing that she talks about that I think is probably still relevant is the pressure of constantly being watched and monitored. And, like, now, obviously there's, like, cameras are seriously, like, watching and monitoring everyone, not even if you're in prison, but how, like, stressful that is not to have, like, a moment of. Of, like, where you're not being monitored. She met a lot of, like, lifelong criminals who had horrible circumstances. She, you know, befriended people who, you know, died by suic side while they were in prison because it was just, like, too hard for them. Florence was a member of what they called the star class, so she had, like, a red star on her, like, prison uniform because she'd only committed one thing. So some people were, like, habitually in there, but she was like, she did the one thing and then she was, you know, in there. So they knew that she got treated a little bit differently. Her mother visited her whenever she could, but it was only like 15 minutes at a time, which was, like, really hard for both of them. They can only get letters every few months, which she also speaks to that being, like, psychologically really difficult, not only because, like, you want to talk to your friends and family, but also, like, if someone sends. Sends you a letter with bad news, you don't know. You don't know what the outcome is. For a long time, I was living
>> Farz: the anxiety of it.
>> Taylor: Yeah. Yeah. And how hard that is. She says, basically in her book, this happened to me because of 12 ignorant men, because, like, the jury just, like, accused her and she doesn't feel the evidence was there. She also brings up other cases of, like, people going to prison for things that they didn't commit. And there's one guy, his name is Alfred Beck, he moved to the uk, I think from Norway, and he was convicted twice of crimes that another person who looked like him committed. And, like, so Alfred Beck is trying to live his life and this dude looks like him, and he does. There's pictures on Wikipedia, but this dude that looks like him just keeps committing crimes and poor Alfred keeps getting arrested for them.
>> Farz: That's. Yeah, that's kind of stuck.
>> Taylor: I think that Happened to my husband in junior high. There was like another one and the other one was bad.
>> Farz: Evil one.
>> Taylor: Yeah. And he would get in trouble for like, evil ones wrongdoings. So eventually Alfred beck does get £500 in a pardon. But like, sucks. Susan jail for a while. So another thing, I think the final thing about her, or I guess another thing about her being in prison that I know I yell about people not reading enough these days, but, like, I know that you don't read a lot, but I also know that you can read. Like you have the mental ability to read, but there are who don't and cannot, you know. And that's like on the school system. That's on like the, you know, having a childhood or not. It's on like Victorian England. But it's on now. Like people. Maybe people can't, you know. And like, that made me feel really sad because, like, yes, you can't read all day. She's like, you can't read all day. Like, they can't. You can read, but you can read like an hour a day and like, feel a little bit. A little bit of like, respite from like the day to day. But a lot of people couldn't. And probably still the case, like people can, which I hadn't thought about. And it's very sad. So she lives his life in prison. People are asking for relief. She's doing hard labor. And then one day they're like, okay, you've done enough. It's been 14 years and we are. You are now going to be free. And so she goes to a convent for a couple months to, like, start assimilating back to life, like a little bit more. Like, you have a little more autonomy. And then she moves back to the United States. She gets her US Citizenship back because the law, I don't know, I didn't look it up, but the law then was like, if you married someone from England, you became an English citizen, but you. If they died, you can go back home and in. Go and be a US Citizen again. She was back to the US and she does lecture on prison reform, which I totally got from her book. Like, I thought it was like, really, like, interesting and helpful. Even though it's like over 100 years ago, I still thought it was cool. A lot of it's about, like, you know, humanizing people, stopping the monotony, and like, you know, helping people, you know, become better people while they're there. Eventually she stopped doing that and ended up being pretty poor. She lived alone in Connecticut, and by all accounts, when she passed away at the age of 79 on October 23, 1941, she was pretty much penniless. And she's buried in Connecticut next to. Next to one of her friends, because, again, she never saw her kids again after that.
>> Farz: I didn't know you could be poor and live in Connecticut. I thought Connecticut was one of those 40, 20 rich states.
>> Taylor: Remember that person we know who said he grew up in the bad part of Greenwich, Connecticut? Yes, girl, there is a bad part of Greenwich, Connecticut. Trying to act like you aren't rich. Give me a freaking break.
>> Farz: You definitely look like the kind of person who would say that as well.
>> Taylor: Bad part of Greenwich going in again. So funny. But, yeah, that's it. I don't think she did it. I think it just. He just happened to die, and they just wanted to accuse her and put her in jail. But it is interesting that because of this, we know who they are, and we know about their lives. You know, I think we talked about that before. Like, she could have just, like, been a young woman married to an old man, and we never would know her name. But then this scandal happened, and so now we know about her.
>> Farz: Yeah, you kind of want that, though.
You have a Wikipedia page about Olive Oil on fingernails
Like, you want a remarkable life, but
>> Taylor: you don't want a Wikipedia page. I don't have one.
>> Farz: I'll write one for you.
>> Taylor: Thank you. That's so nice.
>> Farz: Under, like, the personal life piece, I'll say, olive oil on fingernails.
>> Taylor: Yeah. Thank you. Oh, thank you for remembering that 10 minutes ago. Thank you. And I believe that you have the ability to read and write, so I think you could write it for me.
>> Farz: I actually read and write every moment of every waking, every day. Like, yeah, you kind of have to.
>> Taylor: We're just, like, staring at a screen and to avoid having to read and write.
>> Farz: Right. It's. It's more so just like, I'm not as good about, like, what I'm not good is focused attention for prolonged periods of time, because our life and our work does not. Has trained us out of that being a thing.
>> Taylor: Absolutely.
>> Farz: So, yeah, that was a fun story. How about. Did you come about it? How did you discover it?
>> Taylor: I think I was like, I'm in the mood for a Victorian murder. I don't know. I was listening to our Axeman episode, and that one is, like, super fun. And he's also someone who was like, maybe Jack the Ripper. You know, I love that. Like, who knows who it was if it was one person or, you know, more than one. But listen to that episode of Ours because we talk about the victims a lot and I think it's really interesting and fun and scary.
>> Farz: Very fun. Well, thank you for sharing.
Taylor: I think I have a good engineering disaster that I want to do
Do we have anything else to report out?
>> Taylor: I do have some emails from my friend Shannon who had some suggestions. She specifically was asking for more engineering disasters when we have time because she finds those very fun.
>> Farz: So I also find those incredibly fun.
>> Taylor: Good call. We will do more of those. I think I have one that I want to do. I think I want to do. I think I have a good engineering disaster that I want to do next. So I'm excited.
>> Farz: All right, maybe we'll double up next time.
>> Taylor: Yeah, that's it. But you too can email us doom deflpodmail.com find us on Facebook, Instagram, all of the things do fell pod and tell your friends, please leave us wherever you listen to your to your podcasts. My kids just got a computer and I downloaded Pocket Casts to their computer because they're listening to this kids one called six minute podcast and it's like a kids like adventure story and Miles loves it. It's real cute. It's real fun.
>> Farz: I do Pocket cast too. That's my go to.
>> Taylor: I know, you told me about it. Yeah, that's why I do it.
>> Farz: I paid them $10 one time for a premium subscription. And then like four years later I wrote to them and said, hey, can I like cancel my subscription? I don't want to be charged $10 anymore. Like that was a one time fee. You haven't been charged $10.
>> Taylor: Well, yeah, I did the same thing too because they were like, you can sign up for $10 and you get it for life. And I said yes.
>> Farz: There you go.
>> Taylor: Sweet.
>> Farz: Well, thank you for sharing again. Write to us at unifilpod gmail.com or follow us on the socials @d pod and we look forward to hearing from you soon.
>> Taylor: Tell me if you're a bone broth person. I'd like to hear more about that.
>> Farz: I had bone marrow last night. It was so good.
>> Taylor: I know. The other day, it's so.
>> Farz: Oh my God. It's beautiful.
>> Taylor: Do you have O or something else or do you have like a different. Just a bone marrow.
>> Farz: I don't know what the words you just said were. What's a buko?
>> Taylor: Was like it's like a meat around a bone and then like the bone is cut and then you take the bone marrow. It's like a whole. Like a dish.
>> Farz: No, no, no, no. It's like a. And it was so. I got to think of this place, like somewhere in Austin. That was probably the best single food I've ever had in my life. The way it was prepared and everything. Anyway, sorry, we're wrapping up. Okay, thank you. Thank you, Taylor.