You've heard their names, but what did the Dulles brothers actually do? Today we will ;tldr their extraordinary resume that spans from World War I to Vietnam. Both the Secretary of State and the Director of the CIA at the same time, the Dulles brothers, John Foster and Allen, shaped the United States policies both at home and abroad for decades.
You've heard their names, but what did the Dulles brothers actually do? Today we will ;tldr their extraordinary resume that spans from World War I to Vietnam. Both the Secretary of State and the Director of the CIA at the same time, the Dulles brothers, John Foster and Allen, shaped the United States policies both at home and abroad for decades.
Source the brothers - https://www.amazon.com/dp/0805094970?lv=shuf&channelId=500&plpRedirect=mhFallback
Taylor: We just saw Super Troopers 3. It was good. Was it as good as 1 and 2
>> Taylor: In the matter of the people of State of California versus Orenthal James Simpson, case number BA096. And so, my fellow American.
>> Farz: Boom. Taylor. We are live and we are recording. How are you doing today?
>> Taylor: Good. We just saw Super Troopers 3. It was funny.
>> Farz: Was it as good as 1 and 2?
>> Taylor: I still think 2 is the best, but I did laugh a lot in three, so I was not, like, disappointed.
>> Farz: I remembered after we last spoke that I actually have seen Part two, and I did love it. So that's good.
>> Taylor: Yeah, it's real good. Yeah.
>> Farz: That's awesome.
>> Taylor: Yeah. Thank you for recording. A little bit later. So that. Who are the movies?
>> Farz: Not at all. Not at all. It was good. It was good timing for me as well.
Doomed to Fail brings you historical disasters and failures
Today, Bill went in for his first grooming session, and he lost two pounds of hair from the grooming session. So he was. He was very matted and all that. So he's just. He's feeling good and friend these days.
>> Taylor: Nice.
>> Farz: So let's go. Oh, let's introduce us.
>> Taylor: Hello, everyone. Welcome to Doomed to Fail. We bring you historical disasters and failures. And I'm Taylor, joined by fars.
>> Farz: I'm here.
>> Taylor: Yeah, that's it.
>> Farz: That's all I got. I'm here.
>> Taylor: Let's do it. Okay, are you ready? Because this is a big one. I told you. I was like. Mine's really long, and I don't. This is really long. I have 12 pages of notes, which I feel like is more than usual.
>> Farz: I do know what this topic is. Taylor has disclosed this to me, and it is a huge topic. I can't believe it's only 12 pages.
>> Taylor: Thank you. It is a TLDR. Absolutely. And there's so much stuff that I don't understand because of the Cold War and Vietnam and all those things, but we'll get to it. So.
The Tampa airport is now named the Trump Airport
Okay, let me tell you how I got here. You. Your last episode was on the Charles de Gaulle Airport terminal collapsed. And then news recently, the Tampa's airport is now named the Trump Airport. Or some Florida town, Naples or Tampa,
>> Farz: I can't remember which.
>> Taylor: Yeah, whatever. And did you know that the airport in Little Rock is the Bill and Hillary Clinton Airport?
>> Farz: What? I did not know that.
>> Taylor: I didn't either. And there's also a Ronaldo airport, the soccer player.
>> Farz: So, like, oh, Madeira.
>> Taylor: Yeah. So they're not. They're not, like, all named after dead people. There are some, like, alive people who have airports named after them. Like in Las Vegas, the McCarran airport became the Harry Reid International Airport after Harry Reid died. So they're always changing the names of airports, whatever. But it reminded me of an airport named after a person. And it was on November 17, 1962, when John F. Kennedy reluctantly dedicated a new airport in D.C. after John Foster Dulles,
>> Farz: which is the most disgusting airport. It was like, I'm glad it's named after someone semi evil because it is a horrible airport. Its location and proximity to D.C. is awful. It's filthy. Like, if you're ever in Dulles and there's not enough seats on, like. Like seating in the terminal area, do not sit on the ground there. You will be sitting in someone's urine. Like, sit on your baggage. It's disgusting. Go ahead.
>> Taylor: Gross. That's gross. I also noted that Google, when I Googled it just to. To start, it said, make sure you're not thinking of Dallas because people confuse Dulles and Dallas because they're stupid. Is added that because you have to be real f****** dumb, too.
>> Farz: Dallas is. The airport at DFW is pristine, brand new, gorgeous. Like you could spend. You could go there just and have a vacation in the airport. Dallas is.
>> Taylor: Well, that's good for Dallas, because you're probably going to be stuck there for at least a day and a half. So I guess that's why they keep it so nice.
>> Farz: That's probably true. Yeah.
Annie Jacobson writes about biological weapons and nuclear war scenarios
>> Taylor: So anyway, there are two Dulles. There are two Dulles brothers that I'm going to tell you about today. They have an extraordinary resume that spans the entire 20th century with a huge focus on the Cold War and like, spycraft and all kinds of fun stuff. I've actually been reading another Annie Jacobson book. She wrote the Nuclear War a scenario. Remember when I read that a while ago, and it was like, you know, what would happen if North Korea sent a nuclear. Nuclear bomb to California? And it was like, the whole civilization is gone in about 45 minutes. It was like, absolutely wild. So then she just wrote a new one called Biological War A Scenario. So she does stuff like she takes things that actually happened and, you know, puts them into, like, a different perspective. And in this case, it's the. The plague that is accidentally released from a Russian lab. And then like, it's about six days before civilization. Civilization is pretty much over. But so what her book is, you know, about Biological war is like. And this episode isn't about that in particularly. But the idea that, like, even though Nixon said you can't have any more biological weapons, people still do, you know, so, like, they're holding it up. The whole Cold War, obviously, is Just, like, staring each other with guns pointing at your heads, being like, I won't do it if you won't do it, you know, with, like, nuclear bombs, with biological weapons. And we were told specifically by the Dulles brothers, which we'll get to, that the Russians are the epitome of evil. They are bad. They are going to destroy our entire. Everything. I couldn't find it. But, like, I swear I saw recently that, like, some government thing posted. Communism is the biggest threat to America. Like, we're being told this over and over again, and they're being told the exact same thing about us, you know, so it's just like, we're in. And what that means is that these people who have this, like, anger toward each other based on this ideology, ideological differences, can destroy the entire planet, and they have the power to do so. And a lot of that started with the Dulles brothers. So there's all kinds of things here. There's, like, secrets and spies and stuff. But I'm going to start. Where are we going to start? From the beginning. So I read a book called the Brothers by Simon Kinzer. He's the one who. Actually, I didn't realize this till after he wrote Poisoner in Chief, which is a book I read about Sidney Gottlieb and MK Ultra, which is part of the story as well. And he's very critical of the Dulles brothers, obviously, you know, a lot of people are. And he says the thing that he refers to over and over again is the monsters that they went out in search of. Do you remember that quote from John Quincy Adams?
>> Farz: I don't.
>> Taylor: So it's just that essentially, when John Quincy Adams did a speech on July 4, 1821, he said, the United States goes not abroad in search of monsters to destroy. So he was like, we're not going to intervene in things that are happening in other places. Like, we're not going to do that. Obviously, we do that, but that was, like, part of it. And the big thing the Dulles brothers do is they go out searching for monsters, searching for communism, searching for, you know, the opposite of America. When, like, there isn't an opposite, but that's kind of the kind of thing that there is. So the problem with them is they're looking for monsters everywhere, so they're finding them as well. Does that even make sense? So they're like, something's out there that wants to get us, and we're going to find it, and then they do, and even if they have to make it up. So it's super complicated, obviously. When Kennedy dedicated the airport to Foster Dulles, there was a huge, like, bust statue of him. And then for, like, decades, it was put into a conference room. I think it's back out now. If you do go to Dulles in the discussing this, you should be able to see it. Another argument at the end of the book is there's a Diego Rivera mural. He's the husband of Frida Kahlo, and he did one, a mural called Glorious Victory, which you can look up, but it shows the aftermath of what the Dulles did in Guatemala. And it has, like, them shaking hands and being very happy. There's a bomb with Eisenhower's face on it, and they're standing on dead children. So it's like, they won, but at what cost? And, like, what were they winning and all the things. So we're gonna get to all of this. I. Yeah, like I said, this is a tldr, because it's just. There's so much in there.
Who is the current Secretary of State? Marco Rubio
But here's some information to start us off before I tell you who the Dulles brothers are and what they both did, both individually and together, because they spent. I mean, they're super important to the history of the United States. First question I have for you, Fars. Who is the current Secretary of State?
>> Farz: Marco Rubio.
>> Taylor: Yes. I didn't know that. Honestly, I knew who was up there, but I didn't know what his job was. But the Secretary of State, just so you know and so everyone knows, they are in charge of foreign policy, which is international relations and policy goals, diplomacy, so treaties and talks with world leaders, representation of the United States, international groups like the United Nations. They issue passports and protect citizens traveling or living overseas. And in the line of succession, the Secretary of State is number. Number four to take over the presidency.
>> Farz: Speaker of the House, then.
>> Taylor: Yeah.
>> Farz: Secretary of State. Yep.
>> Taylor: Yeah. Who is the current Director of the CIA? Do you know?
>> Farz: I don't. If I thought about it long enough, I would. I'd figure it out. But, no, I don't.
>> Taylor: It's John Ratcliffe. I don't know who that is, but he is the first person to serve both as CIA Director and the Director of National Intelligence. And his job is to lead the agency, so direct daily operations of the CIA, manage espionage, so human intelligence collection, convert operations, advise the President with all the national security intelligence that he knows, and coordinate policy, work with the other intelligence leaders and manage the budget, personnel, and all of that inside of the CIA. So those are two very important jobs in the United States government. Just hold that in your head before we get there. Cool.
>> Farz: And dni, I presume, was not a job back then.
>> Taylor: What is that?
>> Farz: The National Intelligence, Basically, the. The umbrella or agency that folds. Nsa, CIA, and a host of others.
>> Taylor: Correct. So it's like there's so many acronyms and different things, but. Yes, like a CIA started off as the OSS and then turned into the CIA, and then Kennedy is going to kind of break it apart when he's president, and then it's going to change between now and then. Probably a lot between that. Yeah. Yeah. So, okay, so that's important background information.
The Dulles come from a family that is very, very religious
Let's talk about the Dulles brothers. There are two of them, and they come from a family that is very, very religious, specifically Presbyterian. They. There were five Dulles children. They were all homeschooled due to wanting to be super religious. And they are very connected with the government, like, immediately from when they're born. It's like in their family. Their. One of their grandfathers was a Presbyterian minister in India. Their grandfather, John W. Foster, was Secretary of State under Benjamin Harrison. And their uncle Robert. Robert Lansing was Secretary of State under Wilson. So when they're teenagers, they're, like, going to work with their uncle and, like, you know, learning about the government, and they have this idea in their head that is going to be important their whole lives that they were born for this, which they kind of were, because they were born into a family like this. So in this time period, just like fdr, you know, you look at the government, it's full of rich white guys, you know, and that's because FGR was a rich white guy and had its friends come along. And the Dulles, like, whether, like, they didn't, like, necessarily get along with a part of that circle of, like, it is our destiny to be a part of this because of our class, because of our culture, because of our religion, all of the things. So that's what they're going to get from their family, and they're going to get that almost immediately when they're born, because their family's involved in all of these things.
>> Farz: You know, also, there's probably, like, 20,000 people in the United States, so everybody had a chance to be that.
>> Taylor: I don't know, maybe don't. Don't fact check that one. So John Foster Dulles is our older brother. We're going to call him Foster. He is the airport. The airport is John Foster Dulles. He was born on February 25, 1888. He is very religious. So just again, remember how religious he Is he is the colder and more rigid of the two. Like, he's a little bit, like, has less personality. If you're going to meet him at a cocktail party, which you probably aren't, because he's probably not going to go. Essentially, he went to Princeton and then GW Law School while at Princeton. This is in the book the Brothers. And this is one of those things where I'm like, I don't know why we know this, and I don't know what the author is trying to say, but he did say that there was an incident where he had, like, a really good guy friend, and that guy friend, like, kissed him, and then he got really embarrassed and then never talked to him again. So, like, that was confusing to him. And again, like, I don't know why anyone would ever know that private moment, but I don't know. He was. The author of the Brothers was insinuating that that was part of the deal, being, like, a very religious. Potentially having other things that you wanted to do, but not being able to do them because of religion. That's the only time I heard that. So just FYI, also while Foster was at Princeton, Woodrow Wilson was a. Was a professor there. So he's, like, getting a lot of, like. He obviously is, like, around presidents and around the government a lot. In 1912, he marries a woman named Janet Pomeroy Avery. They're going to be married until his death. His daughter Lilias becomes a Presbyterian minister, so he's super proud of her. But his son becomes a Catholic, which is. Whoa, horrifying. And eventually he becomes a cardinal at the Vatican, like one of the only, if not the only, United States guys who's a cardinal at the Vatican.
>> Farz: And.
>> Taylor: And he died a couple years ago. But he did come out publicly and say that he thought that the church was being too harsh on pedophiles. And if they, like, get rid of all the pedophiles and, like, don't be
>> Farz: left in the church, notwithstanding that last statement, to seem like a very accomplished family.
>> Taylor: They do. Absolutely. Absolutely. So that's it, you know, another religious thing. He just was, like. It seems like he was, like, obnoxiously religious. There was a lawyer that worked with him who said, quote, I'm not sure I want to go to heaven. I might meet John Foster Dulles there, which is funny. And then we have our second brother, Alan. So Alan Dulles, we'll call Alan. He was born April 7, 1893. He also went to Princeton. He taught school in India, and he entered the diplomatic service in 1916. So he was a spy in World War I. And spying, like, has been around forever, obviously. But this is a new espionage that I think also ties to technology, because now we have radios, and now we have things that we've never had before in, like, a war like this. So he spent some time in Bern in Switzerland. And an anecdote during from this time is that Alan was dating a woman from the Czech Republic, and he heard that she was a spy, so he took her on a date, drove her to a secret location, guys grabbed her, and he never saw her again. And that's just, like, the kind of guy he is. So he loved this. That was his jam. He loves being a spy. Being a spy is what Ellen Dulles is 19, 20. He married a woman named Martha Clover Todd, and they had three kids. And his vibe is also. He is having affairs constantly. So while Foster is, like, very reserved and you're not gonna hang out with him when you're at a party with Ellen, he slept with probably everyone.
>> Farz: My memory of these guys is that Alan was the more traditionally evil one.
>> Taylor: I think we're gonna get that way. I mean, I'm not finding, like, evil evil in this. You know, they have to go a lot further. I'm finding, like, that idea of, we're right, you're wrong, and we're going to change narrative till we have to be right, and everyone's an enemy about us shaping a lot of what America is.
>> Farz: Got it. Which is evil.
>> Taylor: Yeah. I was gonna say for better or worse, but I'm gonna say for worse.
>> Farz: I would agree with that.
>> Taylor: Both of the Delos are bad fathers, but in different ways. But I also think that is a product of their upbringing. Like, FGR was a bad father. You know, Donald Trump's father doesn't love him. You know, stuff like that.
>> Farz: Like, it's just, like, nobody's really that good about if no kid doesn't have some trauma. Of course, like, even the best parents, like, whatever, I'm not a parent. I don't know what I'm talking about.
Foster is helping write treaty that makes Germany pay back for World War I
>> Taylor: Well, and this is very much like a culture and a class of people where, like, you don't even talk to your kids. You know, like, you have nannies and you have tutors, and you, like, barely see them because you're like, I am so important. I have. I have to run the CIA. I'm not going to talk to you. You know, so, like, this is kind of part of their life. But as they're growing up, they are thinking, we're Made for this. Like, America is freedom, and we are the ones who are chosen by God to do this. Like, America. That is what America is. Every room they walk into, there's important people. So they're just like, this is what I'm supposed to do. Another sibling that we're not going to talk about, but I think could even have her own episode. Their sister Eleanor actually, like, did a lot of work as well. She worked in Berlin for a really long time. She worked for the State Department. She was spying and working internationally as well. She was born on June 1st 1st, 1895. And she said some fun stuff about working in the State Department. Like, she said, it's fun to see how far you can get in spite of being a woman. You know, she seems fun. If she were a man, we would have had three Dallas brothers to tell this story. Like, she would have been president and it would have been the whole thing, but she was a woman. So, okay, now we have two Princeton grads. In 1911, Foster joined Sullivan and Cromwell, which is a law firm.
>> Farz: Sullivan, Cromwell. Yeah.
>> Taylor: And this is a big deal. So they do international finance, multinational things. They work on sovereign debt and overseas investment. So that's going to be important as, like, some of the main things they work on. Foster is going to be a big deal there for decades. And he's going to work hard to keep foreign countries stable because for the investment, like, not because of the people, not because of democracy, whatever. But he's like, we've invested so much money in this country, we have to keep it stable in whatever way possible by whatever means. So It's World War I. Foster can't go because he has poor eyesight, but he does join, like, a million committees because he's just, like, born to be in these rooms. So he's in the war. He's doing war planning with the War Trade Board. Alan is in Baron being a spy. At one point, Lenin tries to meet with Alan, but he blows him off. And then later he's like, you should take off the meetings. You never know who it's going to be.
>> Farz: You mean Vladimir Lennon?
>> Taylor: Yeah.
>> Farz: That's cool.
>> Taylor: So World War I ends as 1919, and Foster and his friend Bernard Baruch. And Bernard Baruch is like, a big deal in New York City. He's good friends with Eleanor Roosevelt. Like, he's a whole. A whole separate thing. But they go to Versailles, and Foster is on the Reparations Commission and Supreme Economic Council, which means he's the one who is helping write that treaty that makes Germany pay back for World War I. And they're paying back, like all the countries that were, like, just destroyed during this time. And that's going to obviously plunge Germany into an economic nightmare that Hitler is going to be like, we got to get out of this. So we know that. So remember two minutes ago when I told you that Foster works at Sullivan and Cromwell and they do international debt? Well, guess who's going to help do all of that debt working. Whatever on the back end is, it's Foster. So he wrote. He basically, he didn't like, write the whole thing, but he was there writing this treaty knowing that it's going to involve a lot of international finance and debt. And he's going to broker the deals to loan the money from the United States to Germany to pay the other countries. So he's like making a ton of cash from all this. In 1926, Allen leaves the service because he was still kind of spying around Europe and joined Sullivan and Cromwell. So now they're working together, they're working in Germany, they're investing in things like IG Farben, which should ring a bell as a bad thing. Did you know who they are?
>> Farz: Sounds familiar. I don't think I can place it.
>> Taylor: They're the ones who developed the Zycon B gas that killed the people in the concentration camps. So they're like working with these guys. Like, not like they don't know that they're going to do that, but they're like working with all of, like, big businesses in Germany. They are investing in, like, cartels in South America, in like, the banana republics and places where they want to invest in these companies that are buying land and need to make money. So they're a part of all these, like, really big international deals. So they're both doing the. The diplomacy and investing in it. So they're like, hey, let's write these treaties and do these things, but then, like, you can borrow the money from me, blah, blah, that kind of thing.
Alan meets Hitler on his 40th birthday in 1933
So in 1933, on Alan's 40th birthday, he meets Hitler and he doesn't like him, but he doesn't start.
>> Farz: What year?
>> Taylor: 1933.
>> Farz: Was he Hitler then?
>> Taylor: I think so. I think he was already chancellor then. Yes, January 30, 1933, he is when Hitler becomes Chancellor of Germany. So Alan, it's April. He meets him then. So he already knows, like, this is happening. This isn't like a lot of stuff happening in N*** Germany is happening now. And so he meets Hitler and he's like, this is going to be bad for my deals. They're going to default on all of these loans, you know, so that's like his first thing. Like, what happens if Germany defaults on all of their debts? Then their law firm is going to be in trouble. He sees the alarming parts of the Nazis. Alan does say, like, okay, we shouldn't do this. And then that's the conversation that they have at work, that they're like, we need to get out of Germany. We're getting the out of dodge. Like, things are very bad. It's going to be bad. Hitler's going to start another war. Like, no one wants to do this, but this is going to happen. So they closed their Berlin office in 1935, but they tell people it was 1934, because 1935 is. There's, like, no excuse for being there, you know, but they tell people that it was the year before when they have the vote, the board vote. Foster is the only one who voted to stay, and he's actually super upset when they leave Germany and he upset about the money. And he sees Foster in particular, sees communism as more of a threat than fascism because of the religious aspect. Communism is like an existential, spiritual threat because there's no God in communism. But he sees fascism. Fascism. And he's like, well, they have a God there. So, like, that is a little bit. That's better for me.
>> Farz: Do they have a God in fascism? I don't.
>> Taylor: Yeah. Yeah. Like, they, like, they had this. So, like, believe they still had God. And I think maybe eventually, like, there wouldn't have been, but, like, you know, a lot of it is like, yeah,
>> Farz: I thought it was ancient Norse myth, gods, like, runes and stuff.
>> Taylor: That was more of, like, a secret. We're gonna throw this at people later. Yeah. So I'm just look this up. Under the N*** regime, 90, 95 of Germany was Christian, like they. It said. Yep. Okay. While the Nazis weren't Christian, they let everybody stay Christian, and then they were going to fold in the racial pagan ideology as they moved on. Exactly like you were saying. Yeah, that's from Google, but I'm sure that's true. So communism, of course, is a red herring. Remember that from clue?
>> Farz: No.
>> Taylor: Oh, my God. In Clue, Ms. Scarlett says, Communism is a red herring because they're, like, using it as an excuse to, like, go into these other countries and overthrow these things. But it's all about power, you know, and they're trying to do a bunch of things. But in this case, they're like, communism is the actual problem. Like, they're less worried about fascism, but then it becomes World War II. So then they're actually worried about it because economically, a problem that we have to spend all this money on this war. So we're in World War II, and there's a man named Wild Bill Donovan who is a part of the US Military. He is unfortunately not Buffalo Bill Cody. I wish you were, because you can picture Buffalo Bill Cody, right?
>> Farz: No, I can't.
>> Taylor: He's like, I don't.
>> Farz: I don't remember my frontiers. Then history from the third grade.
>> Taylor: Oh, come on. So everyone else who knows can picture Buffalo Bill Cody. He's like the guy with, like, the gun who had the show, like, the cowboy and Indian show. All the things. Anyway, so Wild Bill Donovan is like, we need to have a real intelligence agency. Like, we have spies everywhere, but we're not connected. We, like, aren't figuring out how. We're talking to each other. Like, what do we need to do? And again, technology is catching up. So now they can, like, you know, record things and do things that you, like, weren't able to do before. Like, I saw a thing on the Internet the other day that, like, the very first voice recording ever was, like, somehow on a piece of paper. Because I don't understand how records work. You know, like vinyl, right. It's insane. So. But the first recording is from, like, the 1860s. Like, it's pretty recent that we can record our voices and listen to them back, you know, so. Oh, I also just learned in the biological warfare book is that they. Every. Every government has these little, tiny, like, nodes that are everywhere that are, like, keeping track of the air quality in a bunch of different places. So, like, if all of a sudden there's, like, a high amount of, like, car exhausts in, like, some part of Russia, they get an alert and they say, why are all these people moving? You know, like, they can tell that from all over the world.
>> Farz: Which is why it's funny, is there's a part of your story that's gonna play in my story, just based on what you said there. But, yes, understood on that piece.
Alan Foster creates Office of Strategic Services during World War II
>> Taylor: You know what I mean? Okay, so it is World War II. And FDR says, great, wild Bill Donovan. I think you're right. Let's do it. And he creates the oss, which is the Office of Strategic Services, which is a precursor to the CIA. In typical FDR fashion, it's full of posh people with rich people who have traveled the world. And Alan runs the OSS in Bern. So in Switzerland. And he's good at it. He has networks everywhere. He does cross paths with Virginia Hall. Do you remember when we talked about her? So a spy that we have an episode about. They do cross paths because she's part of the oss and then she's also part of, like, the. Of the British Secret Service as well. So he does that during World War II. Then when the war ends, Foster is involved in the founding of the UN and he takes what happened in Germany and in Europe as nationalism is the problem. When countries become too, like, hyped up on who they are, like the way Germany did, then we're going to have a problem. So if countries start to see any, like, inkling of going to that extreme, we're going to have to intervene is what Foster takes out of World War II. FDR dies. Oh, I guess it's not all the way over, but FDR dies and Truman dismantles the oss. Ellen goes back to the law firm, and he starts to, you know, talk to people in D.C. about how he thinks we should have a permanent peacetime intelligence agency and the CIA is going to be officially coming to fruition with the national security Act of 1947. And immediately he's like, calling people, being like, we have other things to do. We have to do this. We have to do this. Like, we have to. He, like, really wants to be a part of the CIA, like, as soon as it is a thing. In 1949, Foster actually becomes a senator by appointment, but he loses in the special election. So he's kind of bummed that he, like, lost the election. There is talk of maybe making him the Chief justice of the Supreme Court, but he wants to be Secretary of State. Truman is asked to make him Secretary of State. And Truman says, quote, that b******. Not on your life. Which is kind of fun. So. And that's just because they're just, like, seen as, like, surface level bureaucrats, but, like, not deep thinkers, is how, like, everybody else sees them. Or like, say it says how it sees them. So now we're post war, there's already going to. Already, like, immediately, as soon as you, like, start a spy agency, there's double agents and everybody is, like, telling each other and a secret. You can't trust anyone. All the things in the 1950s. Foster is going to also be involved in the peace treaty with Japan. And this time he wants it to be more generous than it was like the Treaty of Versailles against Germany. But, like, he was in both of those rooms.
>> Farz: That's wild. I mean, the guy. Again, they are Very accomplished.
>> Taylor: Like, very accomplished. Like, this is spanning two world wars. He was, like, super involved in both those things. So now we're in the Cold War. I'm sure I skipped a bunch of stuff, but now we're in the Cold War, right? So I guess as soon as the war ends, we're in the Cold War. It's like the day after. There's no day that there's no war. I saw something on Instagram that I screenshot and I'll put on our things, but it's by a user named Jack Dexterity. And I'll put it on the thing. But he said to teach my kids a lesson about socialism. I gave all of my kids a list of chores that I thought they could handle, but set their allowances at the same level. Then I had the CIA murder me and install a puppet dad. JAMIE LAUGH. That's, like, what we're going to get to. That's about what's going to happen, like, right now. So it's 1953. Eisenhower becomes president and John Foster Dulles becomes Secretary of State. Alan Dulles becomes a director of the CIA. And you might say, doesn't it seem like conflict of interest to have brothers in these two super top, super important positions? And they would say, f*** you, you're poor. We know what's best for you.
>> Farz: I think this is why JFK hated them.
>> Taylor: Yeah. Because they would, like, have drinks after work. Like, you're not supposed to do that. Like, you know, and they would bypass a lot of, like, yes, there's a lot of bureaucracy. Yes. There's a lot of steps you have to take to make decisions in the government. Like, that sucks. But, like, you can't bypass all of them. But you can, I guess, if you want to. You know. So they did a lot of. A lot of that. So the Secretary of State does the official policy and the CIA does all the secret stuff. Alan is the CIA director during MK Ultra, during the lavender scare. And McCarthyism. So we talked about those things in other episodes as well. Foster does not like McCarthy, but he agrees that communism is a problem. McCarthy does go after the CIA, and Alan says, absolutely not. Like, you have to go away. And he does get a call from, like, Eisenhower that says, you have to leave him alone. Like, you have to calm down.
>> Farz: I would imagine the Dulles brothers at this point are infinitely scarier than McCarthy.
>> Taylor: Yeah. Yeah.
There is an incredible fear of communism in Iran in 1953
So now there's some international news. There is an incredible fear of communism. Like, the Russians are going to destroy us, and they aren't not going to do that. But it also isn't as much as we thought it was going to be. You know, like we are, they are self fulfilling prophecies saying like, we must be doing it. And the same thing that happened with like the nuclear bomb. We thought that the Germans were way ahead of us, you know.
>> Farz: Yeah.
>> Taylor: And they weren't. But like, you know, you just, you don't know. You only know what you know. And then you also like fit that into your worldview, you know, like they are bad, they're trying to kill us. So they're doing mind control. So we're doing mind control like no one can do. Mind control is not real, you know, but you like that.
>> Farz: The Germany thing is ironic too because they actually were ahead of us and they would have rapidly outpaced us if they hadn't kicked out all the smart people in the country.
>> Taylor: And then everyone left who was still smart. We took after.
>> Farz: There you go.
>> Taylor: So, you know, so in 1953, they get involved in Iran in stuff that's happening there. So the Prime Minister, Mohammed Mossadegh nationalizes oil and the CIA thinks that that's communism, thinks that that's something that comes from Russia, thinks Russia is doing it. The British are mad because they used to own that oil, now they don't and they want that money back. So the Dulles send Teddy Roosevelt's grandson, Kermit Roosevelt Jr. To run the operation on the ground. And this is where they do like the actual spice stuff that you kind of think is a joke. But like my dad used to talk about this. Like he was like, oh yeah, they're going to send me to like into the Middle east to like walk during a no walk sign and like, you know, do something, do silly things. But really is what they do. Like they're spreading rumors that there is this huge underground revolution coming from the Shah who used to be the leader. And they sent the. The Shah ends up panicking. There's like an imperial guard involved. And eventually Mossadek doesn't understand that America is lying to him about the threats that are coming from the internally. So they are telling like different leaders of Iran and different people that like this guy really wants to kill you. This guy has this intelligence on you. This guy does this, this and this. And no one had ever like lied like that before in a long time. And America was like, had this reputation of being the good guy. So they didn't think that America would lie like this, but they were. So then they're able to like get these things changed and do these things and get. Get Mosaddeq and the Shah and these people to think that it was their idea. Like we were saying, like, saying, like, look at what's happening. All this crazy stuff is happening around you. There's all this intelligence, all these things, all these secrets we can tell you that are true or probably not true. That really. It was just Kermit Roosevelt, who's probably like, five, three, like, running around Iran, like, you know, putting secret messages in places and saying there's all these happening when, like, they weren't happening. But once you start hearing that they're happening, then they're happening. Does that make sense? Just, like, make stuff up and get everybody riled up and then get the outcome that they want.
>> Farz: I mean, that story in particular is. I mean, that is a deep, deep well. It was the alignment of the Shah with the British that was giving away the natural resources of the country. And then the people were like, this guy is in. Is insane. He's ruining our country. And most of them actually have populist power. And the Shah ran to the Brits, the Brits ran to the US because they didn't have the resources to any. To the US because the Brits didn't have the resources. Then I think they threw Mossadev in the trunk of a car and shot him in the back of the head or something. It was like. It was like very one what they did.
>> Taylor: And that was like. Yes. And that was the nationalism that they were afraid of. They're like, we can't let Iran get this kind of power, you know, so that's what they were trying to do. And they did it without declaring war, without going to Congress, without, like, doing all those steps, because they were like, having a beer after work and being like, we could do this.
>> Farz: Right?
>> Taylor: You know, so they're going to keep doing that and do coups kind of like all over the world. They're going to do the same thing in Guatemala. So Iran was like a blueprint for doing it again and again in Guatemala. There's President Iacabo Arbenz, who wants the Guatemalan land to belong to the people of Guatemala, just like wanting the land in Iran to belong to them. So the land also mostly belongs to the United Fruit Company, which is the banana company. And guess who is their lawyer.
>> Farz: Cromwell Sullivan.
>> Taylor: Yes. Yeah. Also other lawyer. Yeah. So they do the same thing. They do all these, like, radio broadcasts and, like, drop flyers from planes that say, like, this revolution is coming and all this underground stuff is happening to stop people's confidence in the president and in their leader. And sometimes it's interesting because it didn't work as well as it did in some other places because the literacy rates were lower. So they would drop flyers and people couldn't read them. So they had to go do other things, like do radio and things. But that's where the technology is coming in, where they're able to do that. And the goal is to make it seem like there is an uprising that Arbenz needs to focus on and not on the land so that they can continue to own the land. So they're just like, making this up. So all that's happening, they're doing that all over the world. Another thing that Foster, again, very religious. So in 1954, and a lot of this is Eisenhower. Eisenhower said yes to all of this. Like, all this happening. He knew it was happening. He said yes to it. He agrees with the Dulles brothers, particularly on religion. He also doesn't want another world war because Eisenhower has been to war. You know, he's seen it.
The Dallas brothers want to stop communism at all costs in Vietnam
He doesn't want to do it again. And so he says, like, it isn't just capitalism instead of communism. He says it's Christian freedom versus an atheistic totalitarianism. So it's us versus them, and we are Christian. So that's why, you know, that's the time we get the under God in the things and in God we trust on the dollar bill. And all that is Eisenhower and Foster Dulles doing that together. So now Vietnam. Now there's happening in Vietnam, which I know absolutely nothing about. Again, like, insanely complicated. But what. But Vietnam before the Vietnam War, Vietnam is actually French. So the French have like. They are the ones who have, like, Vietnam as a colony for like, many, many years. Which is why a banh Mi is on a baguette, really. Yes, that makes sense. I know. So that's why. So they Now Vietnam wants to be bossy, independent. Ho Chi Minh is a communist and a nationalist, which, like, seems crazy to the Dallas brothers. And the communism part makes them think that they're being controlled by Russia. So the Dulces are like, whenever I hear the word communism, I know Russia's involved. I'm not going to talk about anything else. So any nationalism comes from Russia. Any land reform is communist, comes from Russia. Any anti colonialism is communist. That's also coming from Russia is what. Is what the Dallas are thinking and believing. So, like, that's why they need to go in and, like, interfere in Vietnam. They see threats, like, literally everywhere. And the goal is to stop communism at all costs. A couple fun little side quests in the 50s. The CIA is the one that commissions Animal Farm, the book to be a cartoon to like put on tv. And they changed the ending so that the. That Orwell's widow was mad. So I actually just finished 1984, which was like a whole thing. But George Orwell also wrote Animal Farm and the. The thesis of animal farm and 1984 is that people who only want power for power's sake are bad. You know, like that's the thesis. But the. But Allen Dulles had them change the outcome so that, you know. But this group in charge is good rather than really everyone's bad.
>> Farz: Yeah, because when you first said that I was like, did they miss the point of the story?
>> Taylor: Absolutely, yes. So he's into that. He also Alan Dulles. So CIA is super good friends with Ian Fleming, who is the guy who wrote James Bond. So James Bond isn't Alan Dulles, but like the stuff that Alan Dulles and Ian Fleming talked about is stuff that got into his books. There's actually like a several pages where they interview each other and talk about like spycraft and stuff. And they're just having like the best boys time in the whole entire world talking about it.
>> Farz: You guys actually seem like they've had some like a very interesting life.
>> Taylor: Yes, yes, it sounds like that is fun. They had a great time. A couple other things that they have going on in 1954, there's Operation Gold in Berlin where they dig a tunnel to tap into Soviet phones. But like as soon as they started digging it, the Soviets obviously knew because there was a double agent named George Blake who was British, who was working for the kgb, but they still tapped some stuff. Just like they're doing whatever they can to like feel like they're infiltrate infiltrating. But there's so many double agents, it's crazy. So they're in Guatemala, they're in Vietnam, they're in Iran, they're in Germany. And then what about Africa? You ask,
>> Farz: do they have something to do with Nelson Mandela's incorporated? I guess that was way later.
>> Taylor: That's later. But there's something interesting happening in like Africa and like Asian countries like India and Indonesia and, and not, not like the big ones like China and Japan, but the other Asian countries were there. Like we don't necessarily feel like we are part of the Soviet bloc or the American bloc. We want to be something else, you know, which is fair. They want to like be their own, be their Own thing. And this is exactly. Well, like I said, I just read 1984. But the third block is this. It's these African nations. And in 1955, Asian and African nations meet at the Bandung conference in Indonesia to be like, hey, what do we. How can we, like, kind of take care of ourselves and start to, like, build our own economies and build our own governments? And the. Dallas says don't even understand. They're like, no. Like, you can't. You can't do something new. You can't have, like, some social programs and some of this and some of that. Like, you have to do our thing. And if you're not doing our thing, then you're doing communist thing. So anything that isn't specifically exactly what the west wants you to do, Bennett's communist. We don't even care if your idea was to do something new. So they're gonna do a lot of that. They're gonna get rid of people who are moving forward with progress and saying, like, we know what's best for you. We're not gonna. We're. We're gonna. You know. And they're gonna do those same things. So they're, like, infiltrating, starting these little riots, spreading rumors, things like that. So.
They wanted just to be neutral. They were like, okay, you guys can just
And they hated that. They wanted just to be neutral. They were like, okay, you guys can just, like, do your thing. They were like, you can't do that. You can't do that either. Like, you can't. You have to choose one or the other or. And if you choose the other, then, like, we're going to destroy you is basically the plan.
In 1957, Carol Burnett sang a song over John Foster Dulles
So another fun thing. In 1957, do you know who Carol Burnett is? She's an actress. She's still alive. She's in her 90s.
>> Farz: What's she been in?
>> Taylor: She had, like, her own TV show in, like, 1960s, like, the Carol Burnett Show. And then she's in, like, some, like, older movies. Like, I don't know, just movie Annie. She was like, the bad woman in Annie. She's funny. She has red hair. She's like. Like, red hair, like Lucy, but, like, a little bit louder. She's cute. So she's still alive. She's 93, but. So one of her. One of her biggest claims to fame was this. In 1957, on TV, she sang a song called I Made a Fool of Myself over John Foster Dulles, like, talking about how, like, she. Because everybody was screaming about Elvis, like, at that time. And she was like, you know, like, oh, part of the song is my heart ripped Apart at the seams for our State Secretary. You know, like, it's funny, and people loved it, and, like, they loved it. And it was funny because people knew who he was. Like, he was, like, very, like, famous, and people knew who wasn't. It was, like, a funny thing because he's very not. He's not charismatic. No one's falling in love with this man. You know, like, that's a joke. That's the joke I wrote. He was very unsexy, like, not a sexy man. So this is going to happen again. It's happening. In 1958 in Indonesia. We were involved with helping rebels have a leader who was, like, potentially a communist in. And then you know, just kind of saying, like, well, they're communists. And then once we kill them, like, they were communists, like, without even having any, like, of their own way to say that they were or were not. So by this time, they're still in these jobs and they're in their late 60s. And Foster gets cancer, and he dies at Walter Reed on May 24, 1959, at the age of 71. Three years after he dies, John F. Kennedy dedicates Dulles Airport to him on November 17, 1962. Eisenhower is there, The Dulles family is there. Kennedy is there, you know, dedicating this. Kennedy, again, like, didn't love him, and, like, was like, this is annoying, but, like, did it anyway. So now it's just Allen Dulles, and there's going to be more things happening. There's going to be some stuff in the Congo. And we talked about this with Sidney Gottlieb and MK Ultra, because this is when the CIA sends Sidney Gottlieb to Africa with poison to kill Lumumba, the Prime Minister of the Democratic Republic of Congo after the Belgians leave. The west didn't help Lumumba with stuff. He asked for help after their. The colonists left, he asked for help, and they said, we didn't help him. So he went to Russia to ask for help. And then we were like, oh, communist, whatever, and got him killed as well. Gottlieb didn't do it, but that was, like, part of his plan. Another big thing that I think also deserves its entire thing is the Bay of Pigs.
>> Farz: So I thought that's why the Kennedy brothers, in particular, like, hated them, was because they kind of forced their hand into it.
>> Taylor: So it's after Foster is dead, but yes. So the CIA had bad intelligence, and basically we overreacted and it was super embarrassing for the United States. Kennedy said, quote, splinter the CIA into A thousand pieces and scatter it to the winds. He was just p*****. He didn't want anything to do with them anymore. They do another coup against Charles de Gaulle, and Kennedy is like, enough is enough. Like, the stuff that you guys are doing is not helping us move forward. You are going into these places destroying, like, faith and government all over the world, and we're not really getting anything from it. And I'm getting embarrassed by the stuff that you are doing. So he. In 1960, Kennedy gives Allen the National Security Medal on November 28, and he resigns the next day. So Alan is out of the CIA, but Alan gets the last laugh because Alan is part of the Warren Commission, which is the commission to see who killed Kennedy. And a big part of Allen's job on the Warren Commission was being like, let's do the. Do this without talking about our secrets. You know, like, let's not tell people about the Castro stuff and why Cuba might be even more mad at us. Like, let's not tell people about the things we've been doing. So who knows, like, what Allen's being on that committee did toward the answers of what they had to say at the end anyway. Think it was anything also?
>> Farz: I mean, it was obviously ripe for conspiracy theory, the fact that he was on the commission.
>> Taylor: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So Alan was also one of the people in charge of creating Langley, like, the CIA headquarters in Virginia. And later in life, he would kind of wander around there. I think he was like, a little bit. Had a little bit of dementia, would wander around, which I do not think he should have been allowed to do, but they would, like, let him in anyway. He died on January 29, 1969, at the age of 75. He just had, like, influenza and pneumonia. Just like old man stuff. So in hindsight, we know that the Soviet Union was doing stuff they weren't doing. Everything that we said that they were doing that we thought they were doing, and we weren't doing everything that they thought we were doing. You know, it was a lot of, like, rumors and, like, you're doing this, and you're doing this. Like, they weren't secretly trying to make Africa communist, but it was, like, the fear of each other that made us build horrible things. And the Dulles saw this as, like, their mission in life. The reason they were there was to, like, have stop this godless communism from taking over the world. And so if anything that was hap was happening, that didn't make sense to them or wasn't what they wanted, they were like, this must Be a secret spy plan, like it must be. So they just turned everything into that so that they could. Secret spy plan back on it.
>> Farz: You know, this validates my prevailing theory that if people in power did, like, half their job, they just worked half time, the world would probably be better off.
>> Taylor: Right. Because they're making this stuff up. Like, they're. They're making it worse, not making any better.
>> Farz: As an example, what you were saying about Iran, the distrust of the Shah's association with Western powers after Mossadegh was killed.
That mistrust is what gave the ayatollah the foothold he needed
I gotta research that. I can't remember what ended up happening with him, actually. But. But. But that mistrust is what gave the upstart, which was the ayatollah, the foothold he needed because he was a counter. He was a counterweight to the Shah. But, like, if they had let this guy do his thing, if they worked less hard and let this guy do his thing, then you'd have a democracy in Iran and nothing in the past 50 years would have happened.
>> Taylor: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's what they did in, like, many, many countries around the world is just, like, interfere and make things worse.
>> Farz: Yeah.
>> Taylor: And a lot of the stuff, like, a lot of the fake revolutions and fake things that they did is, like the United States lying to people, which was, like, again, obviously not new. But, like, people didn't. They trusted them. And then. Until they didn't, you know, so a lot of our, like, global reputation as being untrustworthy is because of this. You know, because we were trusted and then we weren't, because we were lying and spying and doing all these things.
>> Farz: Which also points out that, like, Kennedy actually was. I can't speak for every one of his policies, I don't know, nor do I care to research it. But in terms of, like, his instincts and reading the room, like, he definitely read the room. Right. With these guys and was like, yeah, they're trying to do stuff that is not in the actual best interest of the country and their vision of policy that dates back to the Stone Age, and we don't need that around.
>> Taylor: Yeah, he's right. Yeah, exactly. Because, I mean, they were. They were doing policy in World War I. Like, yeah, there was a lot happened in the last century. So, like, being a part of all of that is pretty wild.
>> Farz: Yeah. Older leaders need to step aside.
>> Taylor: Yep. And then I'll end with a quote from Peacemaker. Do you ever watch Peacemaker? It's John Cena. It's so good. Yeah, it's on hbo. It's cute. But Peacemaker Said, quote, I cherish, cherish peace with all my heart. I don't care how many men, women and children I need to kill to get it.
>> Farz: That's pretty spot on.
>> Taylor: It feels like, which I thought, I thought was great and is what we see in like that mural by Diego Rivera. I'll post that online too. Just like them shaking hands and passing money back and forth and literally standing on dead bodies.
>> Farz: It's so interesting to me that like, people, leaders, countries, politicians, they don't seem to learn the very basics of like thermodynamics. That everything you do somewhere has like a reaction associated with it. It's, it's incredible that like these historic events happen and you look back to the cause of it. Like when you were saying earlier when they wrote the Treaty of Versailles, it was like, if we bankrupt this country and send everyone into misery and depression and no hope or chance at any sort of a future, everything's gonna work out. It's like, how do we not get that? It's, it's so wild, you know, it's very, it's very wild.
>> Taylor: I know. And then like most people just wanna have food and live their life and, you know, whatever. Like you can, like. And the way that we're doing things, like, it's hard for people to just have basic stuff, you know, and you're like, if you weren't fighting over these like, things that don't really matter and are going to just be the same thing over and over again, we could just, I don't know, all have solar powered cars.
>> Farz: I think it all boils down to like the great man theory of history, where if you want to be consequential because life is finite and it, you want to have an impact and it doesn't matter what happens. You know, as you were talking, I was thinking about the 30, 40 million Russians who were killed under Stalin. And it was like, even when the ideology is flipped, totally the other direction doesn't matter. You still are going to have these huge consequential pushes in history because you want to have an impact and a legacy and point to something and say, I did that thing, even if it's a disaster.
>> Taylor: I mean, they have Wikipedia pages and we don't.
>> Farz: I mean, a lot of good people have Wikipedia pages too. Like, you don't have to do evil.
>> Taylor: It's true. That is a good, that is a good way. So, yeah, I feel like, I mean, each of these things, I feel like we could obviously, like, just learn so much more about. And it's super duper interesting. The. I was been on Reddit recently because last podcast is in the middle of a melee incident episode. Have you heard about that? So I actually looked it up a while ago, and I was like, I'm not doing it. It's so awful. It is. During the Vietnam War, there was a thing where American soldiers went to a village, and they said that there were, like, insurgents there or whatever, and there weren't. It was just women, children, and old people, and they murdered everyone in about two hours. They murdered and raped their way through 500 people. It was awful and just absolutely the worst. And. But last podcast is going, like, really far back and, like, talking about history of Vietnam. And then everyone on their Reddit, of course, is, like, mad because you're getting a lot of stuff wrong, you know, And I'm like, it's so complicated. Like, that sounds like a cop out, but, like, I don't know. And I feel like the. Another thing that I've said several times is, like, I feel like the boomer generation never talks about Vietnam. You're like, your friends left, you left, and you came back different, and you killed people, and then you came back and acted like everything was normal and you're supposed to have, like, nuclear family and everything was fine, and you never talk about it. It.
>> Farz: Yeah, I mean, I bet that's a lot of trauma baked into that. And. And yeah, the history part is like, my episode, when we get to it. Well, I spent a lot of time, like, looking at maps and charts from that area for reasons that, you know, that the listeners will find out. And, like, I forgot that parts of Malaysia were. Were called Sumatra and that you had the Khmer Rouge and Cambodia slicing and dicing through that area. Like it's. There's a. Yeah, I'm not shocked. That last podcast is, like, exceptionally well researched, I would say, for the most part. But even exceptionally well researched has, like, a lot of areas of gray for interpretation that history books might not give be the best narrators of.
>> Taylor: It has to be, like, your life. You have. You have to be a guy who wrote a book about Vietnam to know everything about Vietnam, because you have to read every book about Vietnam first and then make your own decisions and then do that.
You know, I was curious about Dulles Brothers. I've always been really curious about them
You know, I was. My books are in a pile right now because my library is still being built, like, literally in a pile, so I couldn't actually go through them. But I do feel like I have a lot of stuff that, like, ties to Dulles Brothers, like, in it. Like, I have the Warren Report, like, I have these things, and it's just like, these people show up in all of these places and, you know, maybe we, like, wouldn't know their names if it weren't for the airport, you know, as much in as we'd do because a lot of it was secretive on purpose. You know, which is. Which is like, there's so much of it that's a secret and, like, how much we know now that we didn't know then of what they were doing and how much is going on right now that we don't know anything about, obviously. And we'll find out later and be like, what the f***? They were doing that this whole time. And like, they were. And, like, just who knows what's going to be.
>> Farz: Yeah. Interesting stuff. Thanks for covering that. I've always been really curious about them because of my. I've been to dulles Airport probably 300 times in my life, and I've always cursed every time I've flown in and out of that airport. And now I have another reason, which
>> Taylor: was closer to D.C. dulles or Reagan.
>> Farz: Reagan is so much closer. Reagan's Virginia. But it's like the bridge connecting Virginia to the metro DCA is. Or the metro DC area is. I said dca. It's. Yeah, Reagan is actually bca.
>> Taylor: Okay.
>> Farz: And then Dulles is ihl, I think something like that. But no, Reagan is the one you fly into.
>> Taylor: Yeah. Good to know.
>> Farz: But, yeah, thanks for. Thanks for doing that.
Do you have any lists from out for us today? No, I don't think so
Do you have any lists from out for us today?
>> Taylor: No, I don't think so. I didn't even look. But I do mean. I do look, but nothing. No. Thank you, everyone, for. Shannon wrote in an email recently. Thank you, Shannon. And yeah, thanks, everyone. Please tell your friends and, you know, like us on social media, share with stuff. Maybe you have someone who you. Who follows you, who would like to, you know, listen. So we're on there. Doom defell pod. And then. Yeah, I think that's it. Send us an email dunefellowpodmail.com if you have any questions or suggestions or things that we want to cover or things that you know about Dallas's that we didn't cover, which I'm sure there's a bunch of it in there. So what should we do next?
>> Farz: Yeah, and on all the socials, that dubnafel pod, you can follow us there and we will join y' all again in a week from now. Thanks, Taylor.
>> Taylor: Thank you.