Today, we are re-releasing the horrible story of the the murder of Kelly Anne Bates - We want to deliver all the warnings - Kelly Anne was a child, and she was murdered in a way that is just unimaginable. If you are angry after this episode, you 100% should be; it's a crime across the pond that rocked Manchester to its core. If you or someone you know needs help in a domestic violence situation - National Domestic Violence Hotline is linked below (remember internet history cannot be completely erased, press escape twice to leave the website quickly - or use the hotline phone number below) 1-800-799-7233 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/doomedtofailpod/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/doomedtofailpod Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@doomedtofailpod TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@doomed.to.fail.pod Email: doomedtofailpod@gmail.com
Today, we are re-releasing the horrible story of the the murder of Kelly Anne Bates - We want to deliver all the warnings - Kelly Anne was a child, and she was murdered in a way that is just unimaginable. If you are angry after this episode, you 100% should be; it's a crime across the pond that rocked Manchester to its core.
If you or someone you know needs help in a domestic violence situation -
National Domestic Violence Hotline (remember internet history cannot be completely erased, press escape twice to leave the website quickly - or use the hotline phone number below)
1-800-799-7233
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/doomedtofailpod/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/doomedtofailpod
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@doomedtofailpod
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@doomed.to.fail.pod
Email: doomedtofailpod@gmail.com
Hi Friends! Our transcripts aren't perfect, but I wanted to make sure you had something - if you'd like an edited transcript, I'd be happy to prioritize one for you - please email doomedtofailpod@gmail.com - Thanks! - Taylor
[Music] in a matter of the people of State of California versus Ortho James Simpson case number ba-09
[Music]
welcome to Doom to fail with a podcast where we tell you [ __ ]
the podcast where we are going to call ourselves a comedy show but we're
probably gonna make you cry and gross out on this episode in particular um I'm far as joined here by Taylor my
co-host hi Taylor hello good morning good morning um and we are on to our fourth episode
we launched last week which was absolutely fantastic thank you to everybody who has been listening and
commenting and giving feedback and everything else it's been absolutely tremendous we're up to the three digits
in terms of listeners so it's a slow roll but we're getting there oh my gosh at bars I'm so excited I think that okay
and such good feedback from people so really excited for everyone who's listened I know it's hard to listen to a
new podcast and get used to the hosts and all that stuff so super happy and we're down some notes um that I am sorry
for all the ums which I just said um and I'm so sorry there's so many many especially episode two also in episode 2
says South Korea when I met North Korea and I want to die and I'm mad at you for not telling me that I was wrong so I
need you to be more on top of me and I also want to note that we're not on Apple podcast yet is that still the case
so we are now we are now sweet so we're getting there things are coming together
and then I also want to talk about the dude from my past who listened to the first one and tried to get me to convert
to Christianity that was a ridiculous exchange that you sent me
things this man who's been hitting on me my whole for like the past 15 years married man was like you should read the
Bible before you review it like saying that like you know I'm being a jerk for talking [ __ ] about
um I bought it because I haven't read it and he suggested an app where I could go like verse by verse and I was like uh
there's like 200 fantasy books I want to read before I'll considered the Bible um I'm 30 pages into Dune and I have to
reread the Harry Potter series and pretend someone else wrote it so I have a lot to do and life is short so that's
a hard note for me so that's hilarious I I hope he hears that your co-host and
one of your closest friends I was about to go get an upside down pentagram tattoo like a week ago
but I only did it because I literally went and got like this chest thing done like three I just noticed that wow yeah
I just got that done and was like maybe I should just chill out on the tattoos for like maybe a few days
um but upside down pentagram tattoo is coming already got a place I already know the artist and we are not reading
the Bible we were doing that instead yeah I'm coming back to Austin and getting a matching one so oh yeah
cool well yeah thank you to everyone please so much for sending your feedback all the good things Taylor do you want
to maybe kick us off with what we're drinking today yes so our
non-alcoholic drink this morning um is the physical act of hiding the key
to your husband's Liquor Cabinet during prohibition so just it's prohibition you don't want
your husband to be drinking so you're hiding the kitty liquor cabinet and then our alcoholic drink is a beer called
boddingtons from a brewery in Manchester and you are going to talk about why we're going across the pond
and we're going to start off with the True Crime side of it Taylor this is a really bad story no she's a
real guy that's why that's why I was thinking myself that I can we can only barely even refer to ourselves as a
comedy podcast at this point because I'm gonna go into the details of what's going on here so I'm going to start at the top by saying this kind of thing
should trigger everybody obviously but I know that there's some folks who have gone through domestic violence their
personal life and if it hits particularly hard for you then I would Advocate skipping ahead to your section
Taylor um and just keep in mind entirely this week because it's going to get pretty bad um without the Slimmer out of the way
let's start by going to the subject of today's episode the two parties to this were kellyanne
Bates and James Patterson Smith just to tell you the flavor of what we're
getting into I only heard of this story through our mutually favorite podcast last podcast on the left shout out to
those guys during their episode worst ways to die oh that's how this story was
surface so so again disclaimer that's worth getting into today oh yeah it
doesn't ring any bells those names are ring any vowels so okay yeah it'll be fresh for you then so the story takes
place in Manchester England which is actually where boddington is brewed so there you have it um James we're gonna start off with
James uh the antagonist of the story um was actually a teetotaler so he
wouldn't have had bonningtons anyways it's a shame because it's a great great beer if you can find it James was a complete utter piece of [ __ ] from the
very beginning he was born in 1947 in the events we're describing here transpired in 1996. so remember that
detail okay he would have been around 49 years old I'm going to be harping on age
a lot okay I feel like after the first episode I was maybe a little bit ageless and I'm
gonna be even more ageless during this episode my sister said as far as it's not going to get away with that [ __ ] if you guys
get famous so we were laughing about it because we'll continue we have a few more months of doing this
before I have to shape up there James's history with women can only be described as violent every documented relationship
he had he was physically abusive he was not surprisingly divorced the grounds of
which were domestic violence and that marriage lasted for 10 years which really goes to show that it can be
incredibly difficult for people to leave relationships that are abused absolutely yeah
um yeah I can't imagine with this woman and you're given we're going to learn about James throughout the years I can
only imagine that she experienced what the people that we are about to describe also experienced
I also know as far as that the most dangerous Time to Leave a relationship a
most dangerous time in an abusive relationship is when you're trying to leave so I'm it makes it even harder you know
for people to leave because at that point you know that's when the violence really escalates so yeah we are actually
going to go into the psychology of that a little bit later because domestic violence plays such a massive part of
this um so that marriage ends and James has a tendency after that
divorce to date much younger than is probably not probably is acceptable the
divorce was in 1980s so he would have been 33 just doing the math on when he was born he would have been 33 years old
again I'm harping on his age because for me this is a massive massive red flag I
get that most men tend to Veer younger in their dating lives but I think a 10
plus year age Gap in a couple when the man is already in his 30s is telling of
something I'm not sure exactly what but I think it is like I'm 38. I don't know a single lizzo song I watch movies like
Dunkirk and other biopics I don't like festivals or events where a ton of people are cramped in together if I have
to wait in a line I'm usually out so like 20 year old people really recognize 38 year old me
so so if I ever tell you Taylor that I'm dating a 20 year old I can only imagine it would be because one I'm having a
midlife crisis or two for whatever reason I need an incredibly
lopsided power dynamic in a relationship yeah I think it's it's definitely the power Dynamic and I think you're right
like I have nothing in common with like a 24 year old so I can't imagine you know
having going on a date with 24 year old and that I mean not saying that all 24 year olds like that but I feel like for the most part
um just you know it's a big difference it's actually your 20s because your 20s is
such a volatile time and this at my age I've gone out with several people in
their late late 20s like 28 29 and even that feels like a
insurmountable Gap in terms of like where what what things I think about versus what they it's just not I don't
know but if it works for you it works for you but I'm in this case it definitely does not work and we're going
to discuss it I'm going to use this conversation in my second podcast dating far as in Austin where I speak to all
the women that you dated so everybody's excited about that so going
back to James shortly after his divorce he begins dating a 20 year old named Tina Watson
she gets pregnant with his child and she is quoted later on discussing the abuse
she says and this is a direct quote at first it was now and again referring to the abuse just a little tap
but in the end it was every day he would smack me in the face or hit me over the head with an ashtray he would kick me in
the legs or between the legs not great stuff Tina would eventually go
get out of that relationship we don't know much about her whereabouts they're after or the kid hopefully and presumably apparently could recover and
everybody was happy and healthy thereafter the next relationship that started right after Tina in 1982 was
with Wendy Motors head Taylor she was 15 years old no well I
think that that was definitely a sliding slippery slope that he was on that's that's a hard note that one's
absolutely wrong that's not just our opinion that's an absolute no yeah I know I don't know how we don't have much
details in terms of how this relationship came to be all we know and
one of UC tell that came out in the research of this that he he attempted was around her at one point before the
relationship ended he that's gonna be a pattern for some reason he just really likes to drown women it's a continuous
piece of this it happened with another relationship that he had too and the one that we're going to talk about about
here ultimately that's actually what happened to her as well if you look up pictures of him he
actually looks very similar to David Turpin like he's got the same mop hair that
David has and the horrible horrible skin he's also a teetotaler and he didn't smoke which good for him but in the
1980s I assumed that made him very unusual because I think cigarettes were a health
item weren't they I think by the 80s people were kind of starting to understand that maybe they were bad for
you but in the 50s and 60s yeah 100 every doctors would be like I'm smoking while I'm
giving you a surgery you know but I think maybe the 80s it was starting to tear up but still I think it was pretty
it was popular if you could smoke at Office Buildings in America until the late 90s so I think that it was probably
still pretty popular and smoking is delicious and awesome so unfortunately that is also true and who knows what was
going on in Manchester England whether they you know I would have I don't know maybe they're ahead of us maybe they're
not but but also look I understand if you're sober because you have a drinking problem
but this is Manchester in the 1980s I can imagine the pub life had to be awesome to be able to go out and like
have a drink with friends and throw darts I keep going back to um that movie
oh well I'm losing it American Werewolf in London yes do you
remember that the bar scene before he's attacked by the werewolf yes that's what I imagine these pubs are like that you
can just go in and everybody knows you and it had to be it would have been fun but this guy didn't take part in that
apparently still gone you know I don't know 1980s if you order water at
the bar that's kind of a yeah I don't know it's an interesting thing to be like I'm in England in
the 80s and you know being a little bit different I also the one thing I was wondering is like how many men are in
Manchester is it two because I feel like these women can do better yeah I don't know I actually don't even know what the
population of Manchester is but I mean I've heard of it like we all heard of Manchester United we know that it's uh of course relatively populous populist
area but um anyways fast forwarding a little bit um 11 years from Wendy to 1993 so that
relation with Wendy and the 15 year old ended in 82 and we're now we're in 1993.
and this Begins the start of his interactions with kellyanne Bates Taylor Kelly is 14 years old when they
meet no no older being older yeah
it was a babysitter James's and then babies that are so dangerous dude yeah
yeah the next two years of them knowing each other isn't actually very well documented all we know is that they
struck up enough of a relationship over those two years so when Kelly turned 16
she moved in with James at his house that's all we know she's 16. this puts him at 46 years old
okay that's gross I'm gonna look up age of consent in the UK age of consent in the UK I'm gonna get arrested if
we're gonna look this up yeah go Incognito um it's 16.
yeah that makes sense I was wondering why they harped specifically on the
point that she turned 16 and that was like a thing so I guess that makes sense yeah
yeah Kelly Kelly actually seemed to have good parents
in this situation they try to get her out of this I don't recall what it was like being this age right imagine the
rebellious Spirit of a 16 year old if your parents tell you not to do something you probably try to try to do
it more right yeah I'm sure and we've talked about you know at 16 she could be dating this 46 year old or she could be
emperor of Rome it's a very up in you know whatever yeah who knows what you're
like when you're 16. no one can remember I didn't I didn't put this in the outline but there's a story I read where
the way she was introduced the mom was introduced to James was
Kelly brought him to their house and they were in the kitchen and then the mom walks in and she looks
at this [ __ ] 46 year old ghoul and she said that her first inclination was
to grab the knife that was on the counter to her right and just started stabbing him oh my God yeah which look
that's a pretty extreme thing to think but you're looking at your 16 year old daughter in this near 50 year old man I
mean I can you know one can only imagine what what would what would come of that so at this time Kelly's parents didn't
explicitly know about the age difference it was just based on looking at him that they made the
assumption that he was dramatically older right he's clearly not a another teen exactly exactly you know
Kelly's mom would say when she first met James this is a quote as soon as I saw
Smith the hairs on the back of my neck went up I tried everything I could to get kellyanne away from him you know she
tried they really tried they really did their best to try and you know get this guy out of her life but it wouldn't it
wouldn't happen Kelly would move out because of the non-stop arguments but moved back in with him in November of
1995. again I don't know the ins and outs of the domestic violence but Kelly's Behavior around this time seems
like it was emblematic of someone enduring a lot there's yeah things that she was doing and there were indicators
so for example she would have visible bruises she became very withdrawn according to people she quit her job for
seemingly no reason and this to me is really the saddest part of reading
stories about this I just hate it when someone takes the light out of someone else's eyes it's one of the worst things
you could do to someone just getting pleasure out of them being someone that loves you being sad I don't
I don't know if that's fixable or not but it really is one of the worst
qualities of being in situations like this is having someone take that away from you totally and taking away like
the things that you enjoy until they control everything like little yeah yeah
and also remember the power Dynamite 46 to 16. mm-hmm
yeah I imagine he's like if not the same age as her parent that he's older yeah yeah yeah probably yeah it's actually a
really good point in March of 1996 she apparently sent her parents a card for their anniversary and for a birthday but
the handwriting was that of James and not Kelly yeah uh yeah people at this point are increasingly worried about her
well-being her brother tried visiting and was told by James that she wasn't home
she probably was because abusers just don't like their victims to be out of their sight right and a neighbor came by
and asked about her well-being and apparently James told her to go stand in an
upstairs window so that the neighbor could see her yeah he was he was he controlled for every
movement he controlled for everything yeah it's her name you know I was thinking about this I could be dead for
months or my neighbors would never know I just don't have that kind of relationship with my neighbors and so to me it sounded like Kelly was a outgoing
person that people cared about you know right and expected her to like be outside and say hi to people but she
wasn't yeah yeah so one one month after this this all that was March of 96th in April of
1996 James Goes to the police and tells them that he accidentally killed his
girlfriend during an argument claiming that she had drowned and she he had tried resuscitating her but it didn't
work ugh yeah yeah
why did they go to the PL now I'm like why did the police why don't he just like leave or yeah yeah because because
he already like brushed off everybody else's concerns right he already brushed off the like the brother shows up oh
she's at home right it is it is an unusual move
although although if I dwell on a little bit I can I can imagine that as an abuser you probably think like she
deserved it everybody's gonna understand my point of view you know
so please go to the house they find Kelly naked in the bedroom
and this is where things get horrible so again if you have a particular trigger for
gratuitous violence police found her blood throughout the entire house this is it this wasn't a single explosion of
violence like it was with Tony tote last week this was incredibly protracted and
deliberate it was a torture session essentially yeah and there's no blood involved in drowning yeah so so so
interesting fact she actually died of drowning well yeah totally but like also that's
crazy that's blood everywhere so obviously the other side was happening it wasn't like yeah she accidentally drowned and
nothing else happened wrong right yeah no that's 100 100 oh God poor baby here
so during the last month of her life so this is the march to April time frame
she'd been kept bound to a radiator or to furniture buyer here or buy ligature
around her neck oh my God that's the thing it's a month that's why
that this is why it went on the list of worst ways to die so I have all the injuries written down here
and I almost don't even want to go through them because it's terrible it's just awful to think anybody enjoyed this
basically a kid a child endured the solicitive injuries to her body just sound like James was essentially possessed
Taylor is it fair to say we don't really need to go into all the details here yeah I think that's okay you can look it
up if you really are curious kellyanne Bates the the details are out there I
don't really feel like it's going to help anyone to actually talk about this but we are going to talk about well we are going to talk about one of the
injuries because it's pertinent to what how long this experience dragged on for
the one injury that I will bring up is both of our eyes were gouged out oh no
oh the reason that detail is relevant is because the pathologist a man named
William Lawler who examined her body after she was found said that the eyes were removed quote
not less than five days and not more than three weeks before her death
so this injury happens and she just lived for
possibly weeks oh my God that's terrible it is so scary that is so awful
yeah the pathologist also stated well in my career I've examined almost 600
victims of homicide but I've never come across injuries so extensive oh
yeah that's awful she was obviously starved she was obviously malnourished and like
I said before she did die of drowning yeah so despite all the other [ __ ] that
James said he was telling the truth about how she ultimately passed right she's just in so much pain I mean it's
not like would you fight I mean I feel like you wouldn't even fight back at that point right like I mean I don't think he would
because obvious I mean all the emotional abuse what she's gonna do like he's a grown man and she's a child and yeah if
she's tied to something then I mean there's no I don't know I don't think fighting back is even like a thing
that could be possible yeah yeah 100 and you know there was a part of this case
that struck me especially during the trial portion of it again we don't have a ton of details
about the inner workings of the relationship but I would imagine that gaslighting was a huge part of the
relationship because during the trial James was quoted as saying she would put me through hell winding me up
yeah absolutely not and look I I intrinsically know what
gaslighting is but no matter what I went and looked it up on Wikipedia anyways and the way it's described is
manipulating someone so as to make them question their own reality which I feel
goes part and parcel with an abusive relationship have you seen you know what comes from a movie have you seen the movie
I haven't seen a movie and I don't know what the connection is to that movie like it's literally that's where the
term comes from it's called Gaslight it's about a husband who is trying to make his wife think she's crazy so he
keeps lowering the flame on the lights in the house because it was like before electricity and telling her that she's
crazy because she thinks it's getting darker that's the entire plot of the movie yeah
and that's where the term gaslighting comes from wow okay let's meet you every day
so I kept reading more about gaslighting um and found this part to be telling
this is a quote I'm going to read from the Wikipedia article on gaslighting those being gaslighted must learn that
they don't need others to validate their reality and they need to gain self-reliance and confidence in defining
their own reality and that's a tough part when you're in an abusive relationship especially with
an insanely lopsided power Dynamic is how do you zoom out and gain the self-awareness and confidence that what
you're experiencing is real versus what your partner is telling you I mean they'll be hard at any age much less than 16. absolutely and totally isolated
as well it's just trapped in his house yeah 100 percent so back to the trial
during the trial he said that Kelly had dared him to Blind and stab her again
[ __ ] right yeah [ __ ] or it's like I don't know like I don't think it's like a fun dare
look that's not how that's happening yeah a court psychiatrist that examined James
said that he had um severe paranoid disorder with morbid jealousy and lived
in a distorted reality again going back to the gaslighting concept I went down another rabbit hole on what morbid
jealousy means it's also called pathological jealousy delusional
jealousy or my favorite and probably yours as well Taylor Othello syndrome
yeah you had mentioned this at the top which was the most I think you said the
most dangerous time for someone to leave an abusive relationship sorry he restate that
yeah the most dangerous time in abusive relationship is when you are trying to leave so all of the abuse escalates when
the partner knows that you are trying actively to get out of their relationship yeah so that ties to this because I mean
if you know a fellow the the Shakespeare play then you know where I'm going with this this is a situation more of a
jealousy is a situation where a person is consumed by thoughts that their partner is Unfaithful without any evidence to indicate this but it's
different between men and women so for men predictably the obsession they have is with sexual infidelity and for women
the obsession is over emotional infidelity totally you know a lot of
these situations it ends how you would presume it would end it would end it ends in murder
suicide yeah
which kind of you know again that makes sense why it's called Othello syndrome so so that's the situation that we had here
with James and Kelly which is is an extreme example but I would assume a
fairly common example of a situation where someone's in abuse relationship when I was in law school I knew somebody
that I was in class with who when we were in our last year before we were
going to graduate she was breaking up with her boyfriend in her car
and the boyfriend shot her in the face in the car killing her and then killed
himself yeah oh of course I'm so sorry that's awful yeah
it you know I hadn't thought of that moment very much until I started researching this case
and I saw this Othello syndrome being listed here I was like oh my God I remember that
um yeah there's there's tons of people in Manchester there's 500 000 people there you know like just date someone
else yeah kill people there's no reason yeah I don't need to say that there was
a nickel people but like just date someone else there's tons of people
so you know I'm reflecting back on my that that law school experience and
it's when it's the man doing it which it almost always is the man doing it it's
usually because the woman is like living her best life and yeah he's and
he's being left behind totally exactly I mean she was gonna graduate and presumably be like a very
successful lawyer and he was kind of a nobody and she didn't eat him yeah I
mean he he had peaked with her and he knew that you know
I don't know it's that's it's really that's true like yeah that does yeah that's interesting like she's the best
she could ever hope to date and so he's like I can't I don't know I can't do any
better so you have to oh yeah I have no I have no rationalization behind that
but yeah guys if you're if you're in that situation make yourself better things be better yeah like learn go to
law school you idiot yeah go to school learn an instrument like learn how to do something cool like work with like
don't hurt people because they're better than you make yourself better so you deserve someone better
um that is such good that is such good advice good job thank you every now thank you bring that up in dating fires
in Austin Well nuggets of wisdom um so at the trial they obviously found James
to be guilty and he is sentenced to life imprisonment the jury was offered counseling to deal
with having to look at pictures of Kelly's injuries oh my God people that's
awful apparently every single one of them took the court up on that oh
yeah well that was nice of them I guess God that's terrifying that's a terrifying thing that you don't even
think about being on a jury is how traumatic it could be if you're like looking at these
terrible stories back on the law school thing I don't know if I told you this but I worked in
um death penalty Defense work so I worked for a law firm that defended
people who were subject to the death penalty in Florida the pictures I saw
oh my God [ __ ] nightmare fuel oh my God what
these people did to people I imagine oh my God I'm sorry that you went through that
it's like nine in the morning I feel awful keep going great way to start start the day start your Saturday so
let's see um James had his first parole hearing recently this is incredible she had a
parole Hearing in November of 2022 so like fairly recently he was denied parole he was obviously
he's obviously still in prison to this day he's now 74 years old they described the conditions in which he lived as
closed conditions which sounds like solitary confinement to me I mean he murdered a child I mean he's not very
unfortunate yeah he's not going to do well he's not a tough guy prison person
you know so he's not going to do well so I think that they probably first own safety if nothing else keep them isolated from the rest of the population
and that's where you live an [ __ ] hopefully that's where he dies um yeah awful awful story again
the list of [ __ ] that this girl went through there was a hundred and fifty separate
injuries to her body not if you want to know go look up the details but it was a
it was an awful awful experience and if you were ever in a situation that is veering towards violence
find your support system and hold on to your support system your family or friends and do your best uh to get out
of the I'm going to put some resources in our notes um I know there's some places that you
can go to where like you can erase your browser history so someone if you're worried that someone's checking that for
you and things like that so you can get help kind of anonymously without your your abusive partner knowing
um how how long will she drowned like in the bathtub yeah in the bathtub oh
yeah he apparently drowned her in the bathtub then took her body and put it in the bedroom
uh yeah man I feel I don't know what he thought would happen when police was her
eyes were missing right it's not that's not all the blood everywhere it's not like she accidentally drowned in the
bathtub and everything else is perfectly fine like there's a blood everywhere her eyes are missing she's obviously been
tortured for a really long time but oops I killed her yeah it was just like a fun game it's
like that's not fun and games and I almost feel like we're lucky that he did that because he didn't do it
again but he was abusive at least he only killed one person because he definitely would have killed another person
I would imagine as we're discussing earlier when someone's life is going One Direction and The Man feels like they're
being left behind the fact that the abuse escalated from like him punching and kicking the Wendy
girl earlier on when he was like younger mm-hmm earlier on in the in the timeline maybe
he because he was approaching his 50s he went over the hill from the 40s and maybe he just realized like this is the
end like life is I'm never gonna get anyone as young and whatever as as he thought
Kelly was and that was kind of the impetus for that's her graduating law school moment essentially is is like
that's the best I'm ever gonna do from here on out and I wonder what he
is thinking like his now he has been in jail for 30 years you know so it's not
like his life ended his life continued but I guess he just I don't know now he has now he has zero
girlfriends so total piece of [ __ ] hope he rots and
[ __ ] misery in jail for the rest of his life but that's our story and Mike Taylor said we'll we'll put resources in
the show notes if you're in a situation that you think you should extricate yourself from
so we'll move on to a probably incredibly upbeat uplifting
happy joyous tale that Taylor's gonna tell us right Taylor that's right so I
was thinking maybe someday that we should like video record these and put them on YouTube because people really
like that but I'm like my face is 50 like terrible frown and 50 like shock
and then also I'm like out of frame because I'm like crying so I don't know if I'm ready for that yet because I do not make good faces with this podcast
because I'm like about to die so that was terrible thanks for sure we're
recording this on Zoom so we could do that at some point so I know and I think that we should but I need to work on my
my resting terrible story face and then we'll do it fair enough
so okay well let's switch over to our historical story of a relationship that was doomed
to fail and as far as this is this is a love story I texted you last
night that I was crying and reading and drinking whiskey and I was listening to
the last book that I listened on this I had a pile of books this is this should be in our visual medium I'll put this picture I have this huge pile of books
these books that I've read kind of on um these women in the story and I finished the last one last night via
audiobook while I was doing the laundry and I just sat on my bed just like sobbing because it's just I feel very
emotional towards towards these people and so it's a love story
it's complicated there's so much more that can be told than what I'm about to tell you right now but let me tell you
sort of the the cliff notes of this of this story and I'm going to tell you the red flags right at the beginning so that
that were telling us that this relationship was never gonna last and never gonna be a forever relationship so
the two biggest red flags is one person in the relationship is the wife of the
president of the United States she's the first lady and the other person is the woman reporter assigned to cover her
so it was ever going to work out they were you know um
both women in the 1940s and one of them was the first lady so there was a lot of
you know probably not going to make it but in the meantime a lot of stuff happened so
a huge pile of books that's taken me years to read through I want to read a couple tell you what a couple of them are there's no ordinary time by Doris
Karen's Goodwin who's my favorite historian there's Eleanor Roosevelt volumes one through three by Blanche Wilson cook there's Eleanor and hick by
Susan Quinn Eleanor and Franklin by Joe lash and then Eleanor's book herself this I remember that she wrote in 1945
and I wanted to do a shout out to Aaron montijo at Diamond Sutra books in Las
Vegas he's been a friend of mine since 8th grade and he owns a bookstore in the arts district in Las Vegas and he found
me a first edition of Eleanor's book so it's really beautiful and I'm super excited that I have it it's very special
so thank you Aaron and if you're in Las Vegas go to Diamonds future books it's in the arts district
so there are thousands of books written about the Roosevelts talking Franklin Roosevelt Eleanor Roosevelt 1940s World
War II America it's the New Deal um there's thousands of letters that Eleanor wrote she would write constantly
be writing letters to people she also wrote tons of Articles tons of books so this is just like a tiny piece in the
Roosevelt puzzle of this story I'm also already like pretty upset that I'm not
going to get to every detail and I'm going to miss things in this story so I just want to encourage people to DM me
at Doom to failpod on Instagram and tell me what I missed and I want to talk more about it and I'm also not a queer
historian like I don't this isn't and I'm not historian there's some expertise at all so I also want to make sure like
I'm happy that your story was in England I want to you know diversify go all over
the world and I'm not want to talk about white people so definitely let me know if you have any other ideas you fars and the world
so I'd love to learn a little bit more and have some suggestions on other relationships I could cover
Taylor can I interrupt real quick please do
I I mean I've known you a very long time and
The Story You're going to tell us about Eleanor Roosevelt's feels like it is
been on your mind a very very long time [Music] and I'm curious
why that is or if the story you're about to tell is gonna highlight that for us anyways and we can just forget this part
and move on but it's been living in your head for so long I know no you're
totally right like I'm looking around I'm like oh I have a painting of Eleanor on my wall you know I definitely like
have I've read all these books about her I feel very like just continue to be
interested with her I would read all those books again I was
reading doors here is Goodwin because she is a really good you know historian she wrote The Team of Rivals Abraham
Lincoln won that everybody knows about she wrote a really great one on leadership and turbulent times about
like Lincoln and Tay Roosevelt and Lyndon Johnson and I like her books a lot and so I was reading those and then
I read no ordinary time about Eleanor and Franklin and then I was at
my in-laws house and I found Eleanor Roosevelt vol 1 and that is what
actually our friend Lindsay told me to read because she knew I was reading another one about Eleanor so I found that and I've been kind of like working
my way through that three volume set and it's just like I'll talk a little bit about her life but it's just and this is
also something that I read in another book oh my God about Winston Churchill I just decided
to become a historian in the past couple years I don't know it was a pandemic I had nothing to do so I mean I have a lot
to do but I just had to also do this and this book about Winston Churchill and the way that that book opens is like
I'm interested in people who live a full life like people who really
[ __ ] just live the [ __ ] out of their lives you know and they took opportunities and their ups and downs
but you can really look at their story and be like yeah they [ __ ] live their their whole life and they live the [ __ ]
out of it so I think that Eleanor definitely did that and that I think is really fascinating and something that
like I don't want to be like you know step by step in everything that she did but I think that the idea of like living
your life to the fullest is really powerful because a lot of people feel like they're not I love that yeah make
sense oh okay I have a box of tissues I'm already gonna cry this makes no sense so
the relationship between Eleanor and Franklin Roosevelt it's complicated it had many twists and turns but there was
lots of hurt and lots of love lots of respect and they are uh you know an inescapable teamwork between the two of
them so there's definitely that between the two some characters I want you to remember that kind of romantic
characters are going to come in and out of their lives for Franklin remember Lucy Mercer and Missy lahand and then
for Eleanor remember Joseph lash Earl Miller Dr David guerowicz I know it's gonna get it wrong
after you have a girl witch and then the person we're talking about today writer Lorena Hickok so we're gonna talk about Eleanor and hick that's our couple that
was doomed to fail and start with hick she was born on March 7th 1893 in East Troy Wisconsin so
terrible place to be born terrible time to grow up She was poor she had a very hard Midwestern life her father was an
abusive alcoholic she left home at a young age to work as a maid so very young like 13 14 working in other
people's homes she didn't really get a chance to go to school eventually a relative in Chicago was able to take her
in and allowed her to get an education and so she began writing as like a girl reporter in in like Minneapolis in
Wisconsin in like the Midwest and you know it was a time when like women were given the you know tell me about
the biggest pumpkin in town stories you know like it wasn't like a woman was a hard-hitting reporter but hick was a
hard-hitting woman and she um wanted to you know move up and do
other things and really get move forward with her writing and she was very talented so hick was also a lesbian she
had an eight-year relationship with a woman named Ella Morse a fellow reporter but all accounts were very happy
um hick was diagnosed with diabetes in you know in her 30s and Ella took time off to take care of her but then
unexpectedly Ella met a man that she had once known and left tick to marry him and start a family
so that sucks heck was devastated you know obviously they lived like together as like Companions and friends because
it was the you know the 30s and 40s but yeah she did you know have a long-term relationship and she moved to New York
because she wanted to kind of get away from the memories of Ella and what they had together so in
1932 where our story starts hick is the most popular women reporter in the
country she was the first woman to have a byline in the New York Times and she calls herself well I said I said this
already but she called herself quote the top gal reporter in the country so that's awesome yeah so she was really
like top of her game yeah absolutely breaking down barriers yeah and
um so if you want to picture her she's stocky you know she's a little bit you know she's just kind of short kind of
stocky she's smoking constantly and she's drinking and telling stories she just sounds like a blast so she'd have
its hard life she's in New York she's an Associated Press reporter I think it's going really well for her so we have hick it's 1932. let's go back
to Eleanor what I just Googled Eleanor Roosevelt and Lorena Hickok to get up
picture of what she looks like and the very first thing that came up was a um
it's incredible it's it's a book that's titled empty without you
I can see why this hits you [Music]
one I mean it's like a heartstring story yeah absolutely
obviously but so now you see their pictures like Eleanor is tall and heck is like a lot shorter than her yep so
you can kind of see them together yeah and so Eleanor Roosevelt was born Anna Eleanor
Roosevelt October 11 1884 so she's nine years older than hick she was born to a rich family her mother
wasn't very nice to her but she adored her father unfortunately her father was a severe alcoholic and he passed away
when she was young so that's something that I actually have in common losing their parents when they're young Elena's mother died pretty quickly after
that so she's raised by family and sent to London to study at Allen's wood Academy which is a was a girls school in
London in that time and if you look it up it's like this beautiful old building and they knocked it down to make projects which is gross so like a great
job London but it was run by a woman named Marie servest and she was from
France she was very forward-thinking and she was also a lesbian so Eleanor would travel with madame's arrest all over
all over Europe and there was another book that came out later that another student wrote about like actually being
madly in love with this teacher and with this public Headmaster of the school so
Eleanor was around lesbians and like knew about these relationships from you know in her teens
which I think is interesting because it was like the 20s yeah yeah I would imagine in any uh culture I would
imagine that there's a um the ability if you want to learn to go
and find out about stuff like that right you're right there's always been gay people yeah yeah exactly absolutely
totally totally right so um so Eleanor has a great time there and she comes
back to New York to like have her coming out party she's obviously from a rich family because she was a Roosevelt and she ends up marrying Franklin Roosevelt
who was her father's fifth cousins they're like practically strangerous and not related they're from different branches of the Roosevelt family they
just happen to have the same last name right yeah her
and TR does give her away at her wedding because her dad had already passed so she is close to him so she already like
been to the White House you know and like been around the presidency because her uncle was President right
so she's married to Franklin um he's also just kind of like a rich kid I wish I could do like an accent that that they can do but they're just
like you know rich kids from upstate New York and Eleanor spent her 20s having babies she has six children one died um
as an infant and she was a terrible mother which I also think is is interesting because like I'm when I'm
reading about like first ladies and women who are really successful there's always something that gives and like Owen Roosevelt was just not a good mom
she didn't really care makes her human I mean everything else she said she sounds incredibly privileged and it's like okay
well you gotta flaw somewhere yeah I think it's because she had no examples because like her mom was very mean to
her but she would do things like if her daughter was crying she'd just like put her outside on the Terrace in New York
City like whatever and then the neighbors would complain she'd be like Oh I thought she needed light you know like I don't know I don't have to do
with this child so she had a pretty bad relationship with her kids their whole lives and you know some of her some of
her sons you know did go to World War II but they they all came back but her kids had like also terrible relationships so
her of her five children there were like 15 marriages among them they all got
married like a ton of times so she was always like a little disappointed in that but she was never really that close
to them um okay that was an um I apologize for it I think I'm doing okay let me know
make like jazz hands if I start doing too many ums I can see you so okay so
now we're in 1913 Franklin is assistant Secretary of
the Navy which is a job that Tiara had as well and they lived in DC and a woman named Lucy Mercer who we've heard about
before was one of Eleanor's secretaries and her and Franklin had an affair there was like a little bit of like flirtation
between them and then Eleanor found some love letters and that confirmed it and she was she was obviously devastated and
thought her marriage was over but her mother-in-law and FDR convinced her that you know they could work through it and
you know they would be able to you know be um be okay I said um so
this is when it's 1921 and the big thing happens to fgr can you think of the big
thing that might have happened to FDR when he was younger like in his 30s yeah he was stricken by his polio right right
correct yep and in 1921 they're at Camp Abella which is
a house that they have in Canada they have a bunch of like vacation houses and he goes swimming one night with the kids
comes home wakes up says I have some chills and then he never walks again he got polio somehow from something I don't
know I didn't look that up but that's the kind of the story that that happens and
another question that I have for you as far as the text said did you know that Greg Abbott is in a wheelchair yeah
I didn't know that until very recently and I thought that was interesting because both my husband and my
father-in-law were talking about Franklin Roosevelt for Christmas of course and they were like you couldn't be president in a wheelchair today they
both said the same thing but I'm like yeah you could Greg Abbott is doing tons of damage and being such a dick from a
wheelchair you know like I don't think that that really matters like I didn't know for a long time until I saw a picture of him but it wasn't it wasn't
like the lead in his story so I don't think it would it would be for anyone now well I I would say that from what I
can gather from seeing you know news articles about him they kind of make it a point to not show
the wheelchair as much as they possibly can apparently it was a pretty traumatic thing it wasn't like he was born
it was a car accident right oh no tree fell at him was driving yeah tree falling when he was jogging oh
that's awful yeah yeah crazy yeah but I think it's interesting
that you can still you know be in be in American politics and be in a wheelchair these days it's not like a deal breaker like I said we're told it was a deal
breaker when we were little or yeah the American president or something yeah well the way that they constantly hid
Roosevelt right so nobody could see that he was in a wheelchair I don't think
that'd be a thing anymore thankfully yeah they're not like propping them up against other people like having you
pretend to walk around right yeah we definitely did that with Franklin for sure so
this was like obviously devastating and some people wanted him to just like retire and like
become you know just like live with his family forever he really wanted to continue to be in politics so for about
nine years Eleanor was his eyes and ears around the country she would travel she
would tell him what was going on in the state and in the country she would meet people she worked really close with his um advisor Louis Howe and kept the
Roosevelt name out there and this was really cool for her she hadn't lived her own life for so long she had just been a
mom and had a bunch of babies and her mother-in-law was very controlling she was under Franklin Shadow but now she was the one who had to be out there
because Franklin physically couldn't be he spent time in Warm Springs Georgia where he had a spa Healing Waters that
he had you know purchased and made for for people who were Afflicted and trying to like get himself better but while he
was doing that Eleanor was the one who was out there really doing things like writing and talking to people and so I think that like the affair and
the polio gave her two big things that really changed her life it gave her a pass to have very deep emotional
relationships with a lot of people so now she was like oh I can go and have
my own relationships and like live my own life and then it also gave her a sense of non-permanence for
relationships like for marriage for other relationships so she did some weird things where she like held on too
tight and put herself from relationships where she didn't belong because I don't think that that like sanctity of a permanent relationship meant anything
as much as it did before to her and Susan Quinn in Eleanor and Hicks she describes
Eleanor's relationships as triangular there's always someone else involved you know it was always like a wife or a partner or like something she's always
kind of in other people's things in Franklin's Affair was the trigger I think so yeah and then the polio
because the polio made her to be able to step up and do things that she wasn't able to do before and she felt the
freedom to do it because she was like well not gonna do whatever you want which right it's exciting for her and kind of left her going to her own do her
own things so she starts a school in New York City she's like the vice principal and teaches there with some of her
friends she starts a Furniture Company up in Hyde Park with her friends Nancy Cook and Marion dickerman which is
another lesbian couple that she was close with so they lived on their property in Hyde Park and had a
Furniture Factory for you know decades so there's a lot of photos of her with them and so she was
really like she would have an apartment in New York City where she would go like to the village and hang out with the gays things like that so she was
definitely like still in that community and they had to be so fun oh my God it's
so fun back to the smoking I mean she alert didn't like to smoke her drink because she had the alcoholism in her family and
all of that which is why she would lock the cabinet and not want her husband to drink during prohibition but
still sounds real fun yeah because that was um that was free Stonewall
so a lot of the interactions had this kind of like
naughty quality to the to it because you had to be in private it had to be speakeasies and like getting together in
friends houses because you weren't allowed to congregate easily yeah kind of wild the fact about speakeasies last
time too I love it I love it I love it I know they're played out but I love them and so fgr is elected president in 1932
blah blah blah a whole bunch of stuff happened to get him there but who's President do you know how many times he was president first he was right uh he
got elected three times in died halfway through his third term and
that's when Truman took over is that right close it's four times damn was that right about Truman yes okay yes
um when this is not in my notes but when FDR died Eleanor was the one to tell Truman and Truman said is there anything
I can do for you and she said oh no no is there anything I can do for you you're the one who's in trouble now yeah at that time to be a incoming president
yeah he didn't even make it a year into his fourth term it but after that they did make it a
rule the two-term rule was more of a guideline after Washington had you know resigned after two terms but it's an
official Rule now but the America you know wanted Franklin Roosevelt to get them through that war so there's a lot
and there's so much yeah yeah because he got them through if I remember my American history right Herbert Hoover
was president during the uh Great Depression and he basically didn't do
jack [ __ ] and then Franklin is that's the position on which Franklin Roosevelt
got elected right was I'm gonna fix the economy he started all these different uh associations and organizations that
could hire people for day labor work and stuff like that yeah yeah got American Idol did a Great Depression yep exactly
that was the New Deal you know a lot of like social programs you know let's build build all these big roads build
all these big post offices just like get get people back to work and um also
this is not my notes just a thing that I happen to know it's like this is the time when like he really wanted like
universal healthcare he his his administration is responsible for unemployment benefits and Social
Security and you know things like that that America didn't have before this so really trying to like make sure that
people were supported by the government so okay so it's his first term it's 1932
and this is like the shortest I can make this and hick is assigned to Eleanor as her like AP reporter so it's 1932. hick
is at the top of her game she's like the best gal reporter in the country she's assigned to Eleanor she's 39 years old
and she's not even going to make it a year before she leaves her job so it's top of
her game she doesn't even make it to the summer of 1933 she has to quit because she's so close to Eleanor so it probably
starts in a train car on the campaign Trail they kind of were avoiding each other they like didn't you know Eleanor was
like oh another reporter who's like following me around and then there was an instance where one reporter named
John got invited to a Eleanor Roosevelt family party and hick
was like that's weird I want to go too and I want to let her come it happened to me because John was having an affair with Eleanor's daughter Anna like the
kids are terrible relationships too but they started to become friends and they spent this overnight Ryan in a train car
where they told each other their life stories and they had so much in common like they didn't have parents were there for them and they
felt inadequate and all these things even though they were totally different socioeconomic points they still felt you
know very very um you know very similar so one thing that I find one story that I think is is
hilarious is in her book in this I remember Eleanor says you know hick interviewed her the night of the
inauguration and so many people were trying to interrupt them that they had to finish the interview in the bathroom of the hotel they were staying in in DC
and it was innocent enough and you know in Eleanor's story she brings that up but I read another book that was like
they were already in love at this point and it was Inauguration night and Eleanor was overwhelmed she didn't know
if she wanted to be a first lady and her and hick kind of escaped into the bathroom and I imagine that this is like
it's cold outside you know when you're in DC the the heater is like hissing you know so it's
like hissing from the heater it's cold outside they're sitting on the cold tile floor and they're just like they have each other during this really crazy time
this actually feels much more romantic than obviously than Eleanor said in her book but it's a time when they really like work together and really needed
each other and you know hick helped er's career he she encouraged her to host press
conferences for just women and she also wrote to they wrote letters every day like 10 page letters to each
other every day when they were apart which is crazy and hick said you know you should tell people what's going on in your letters
so Eleanor created a newspaper column called my day where every single day for decades she would write a couple
paragraphs at what she did and it would be published in a bunch of different newspapers took which is pretty cool hick was responsible for that
so these are all these letters so we'll go out of the timeline and think about these like love letters so they're
literally you know written on paper there's thousands of pages of Love Letters heck burned some of the more
intimate ones um after Eleanor died which is a bummer so we don't have those and then she kind
of gave up because it was like a big task so she gave them to the museum in Hyde Park and said don't open these
until 10 years after I die wow so she just like wanted them to be to remain kind of like a secret
yeah that's part of what I saw here when I was trying to find this picture and found this incredibly touching title of
this book called empty without you was that I was I was looking at when Hicks
died and looking at when all these rumors started coming up and I was like wow that's weird 10 years huh that's how
long I took people to start caring about this it makes sense now yes oh exactly as it could good job that's exactly why
because they weren't allowed to open them I mean they could ever they want whatever but they respected her wishes and didn't do that so unfortunately this
prude of an author named Doris Farber who wrote Hicks biography is the one who opened them first and she sucks and she
immediately wanted to put them away it was like the 80s and she was like nope no and she said
quote how could any reasonably perceptive adult deny that these were love letters so she was like floored
that like Eleanor Roosevelt would have like a physical lesbian relationship with another woman while she was first
lady and she wanted them put away she asked them to put them back for a couple of decades and she also tries to
get around it by saying you know in Victorian times people sent more love letters to platonic friends so you maybe
had more flowery flowery language you know which I think is great we should bring
that back you know like there's some letters from Ted Roosevelt and Taft where they're like you are the best I'm
so excited that we're friends that's great we should do more of that you know but yeah and there's more also like you
know how people are like Abe Lincoln's gay because he slept with dudes in the same bed do you remember those rumors
I've never heard of that so there's like in like some of his Memoirs he's like oh well I was traveling around Illinois as
a circuit lawyer and you know my buddy Jeff who's also a lawyer we shared a room blah blah blah but that was just
like what you did then because rooms were expensive and I think the actual Scandal there is how gross that must
have been yeah that was not like clean sheets that was very stinky all I know is what I
learned about Abraham Lincoln in that Vampire Slayer movie did you remember that oh my God I watched half of it of
like semi recently and I was like I even I can't finish this it was so fun I
loved it maybe I'll pick it up again but I was like absolutely not so who so who knows you know like yes people wrote more
flowery letters but let me read you some of these letters as far as so Eleanor wore a ring that hit gave her
to the odd to the first inauguration of fgr this is like a few months into the relationship and she wrote to hick quote
heck darling I want to put my arms around you to hold you close your ring is a great comfort I look at it and I
think she does love me and then she says you have grown so much to be a
part of my life that is empty without you even though I'm busy every minute my love unfolds thee all night through I
mean it's incredible that's where that name comes from empty
without you yeah from heck this one's my favorite so hick
wrote that she is trying to remember Eleanor's face when they're apart and she says most clearly I remember your
eyes with a kind of teasing smile in them and the feeling of that soft spot just Northeast of the corner of your
mouth against my lips so I think it's Blanche wiesen cook in her book where she put she wrote
sometimes the cigar is just a cigar but the northeast corner of your mouth is always the northeast corner of your
mouth so like I love that they definitely you know were you know we're physical with each other they traveled a
lot and start their time alone they drive through town by themselves and refuse Secret Service help and Eleanor
freely writes about them camping together and sharing rooms at friends houses they did some you know domestic
work together they went to Puerto Rico to look at the slums it was like in some of her pet projects sort of help people there was a project that Elder
arthurdale where she um you know gave people houses and job training to try to get them to you know the better lives in like the coal mining
town so a lot of like Social Services things that they did and you know tons of idol my darlings I
miss you and I love these on the side they dreamed about growing old together like I can't wait until we have a house together and we can just live there
until we're old things like that um they were lovely lovely love letters
and at this time it was getting really harder for obviously hick is not a you
cannot be an unbiased reporter anymore so she leaves her job and you know
starts to get a job sort of in the government that Eleanor um hooks like hooks up for her she's able to have I
also read on Wikipedia and I was just like scanning it for dates juice the J Edgar movie with Leonardo DiCaprio yes I
remember I don't I don't remember it was a long time ago when I saw it but it does did say in Wikipedia that that
movie eludes that J Edgar had proof the Eleanor was having this
lesbian Affair and he threatened to expose her
see I don't remember that I don't either but that was said it was alluded to him in the movie but I don't know if I want to watch it again because I feel like it
was also pretty intense right I remember I remember it I definitely didn't walk away from it thinking better of J Edgar
Hoover no I mean of all people he obviously has Secrets himself you know of all people yes yeah like great you're
gonna be the one to be like this is this is exposable but whatever he didn't um and so hick was you know working with
worked for the World's Fair she worked for the DNC she traveled around reported back to Eleanor kind of became her eyes
and ears and eventually she moves into the White House and I have oh gosh where do I have somewhere in one
of these books I have a map like a floor plan of the White House at that time and
so the way that it was is the the residence floor of the White House
Eleanor and Franklin had different rooms that were side by side and then across a like a sitting room for Eleanor's room
was a Lincoln bedroom which is like the famous bedroom because Lincoln has a long bed there or whatever and on the
side of the Lincoln bedroom is a small room and that was Hick's room and she lived there for years so there's steps away from each other in
the White House is that that's not normal for no is that normal no yeah
okay so the Roosevelt's had a lot of like friends that would stop by and stay there who were like you know who who
would work there and they would people would stay for a while there were always guests you know it was never like an empty you know an empty place but you
know having hick lived there for so long and also they kept it a secret so heck would literally like if someone took her
out to dinner they'd bring her back to the Mayflower hotel and she would sneak out the back and take a cab to the White
House so that's so interesting she wasn't telling people that she was living there but she was living there which I think
is really this is like this is the sad life of Lorita Hickok because she you know was just wanted to be close to
Eleanor in any way possible I'm looking at the Mayflower see where it is in proximately to the White House
oh my God thank you so it is
I mean it started inconsequential distance away
right I guess if you're trying to maintain that level of secret you kind of go to whatever lengths you have to
it's kind of like I've walked this
I mean yeah like she could have gotten dropped off way closer those places that well it was a long time ago so maybe
maybe not but maybe this maybe this was the closest place you could have gone dropped off at yeah maybe it makes sense but you're but yeah you're right she had
to like pay for a cab to take her there you know it wasn't like free it's like walk across the street
you know yeah something that's like that's more I think more evidence that you know it was
it was kind of a clandestine thing that they were that they were doing and they were sharing So eventually you know when
things got really busy Eleanor was so beloved and so needed and it was World War II you know like they really needed
her out like in the world she was really working hard to get the United Nations started and she would often had to break plans with hick and hick was getting
sicker with her diabetes and they kept disappointing each other you
know being like I wish I could be here with you I can't like I have to do like I'm sick I have a job I have to do this
and they just kept missing each other in in this time and so unfortunately
pig is just like I can't do this anymore and she moves to a small house on Long Island that she lives in until she can
no longer afford it years later and then after for that Eleanor helps her get a place near her in Hyde Park so she
always lives near her it's like she was never Out Of Reach you know even after the affair maybe he had ruled she was
not right in reach and they both had other relationships hick tried to make it work with other women
Eleanor had like I said before a disposition to like kind of be involved in other people's relationships in like
a suspicious way she would meet like younger men at like like I don't know I
feel like I saw that and it sounded weirder than I actually think it is but she would like go to like a youth conference and she met this man Joseph
lash she wrote this long book about her and became a lifelong friend but they were like very close it was a little bit like her sons were kind of sucked so she
needed a sun figure but also it was a little bit like flirtatious yeah and she was like older yeah and um she also had
a bodyguard named Earl Miller and he they would do things like put on
plays at the White House and like they have this like a video that they have of them doing like a pirate show where he's
a pirate and he like kidnaps her and he picks her up and he's like carrying her around the White House and so there were a lot of rumors that they were having an
affair and Earl Miller said he got married at least twice to kind of start to quell those rumors and
his third divorce the wife threatened to name Eleanor Roosevelt in the divorce proceedings but ended up not doing it oh
wow it was like significant she played a significant role there yeah for sure
like if you're causing your friend to have three divorces because his wives are sick of you guys hanging out then like that's the thing
yeah totally so she was in and out of those things in the end her one of her last
relationships is with a um a man named Dr David guerovich he
you know was a lot younger than her and then he met someone and when he met someone Eleanor was devastated but ended
up like letting them get married in her apartment and like traveling the world with them so she just like didn't want to leave him alone which is like kind of
kind of weird so to explore in different times he's gotta pull the rip cord that's on him totally totally so she
just needed to be a part of relationships in any kind of way Franklin also had other relationships so he's still here you know his president
his secretary Missy lahand who's one of the people I mentioned earlier she
devoted her goddamn life to him she gave him everything she was always with him there's a couple like the Hyde Park
movie with Bill Murray have you seen that no so there's a movie where Bill Murray plays FDR and it they do the
weekend where the king and queen of England come to Hyde Park to to meet with him and
they in that movie they flat out say that he was having an affair with another cousin of his and Missy lahand
his secretary um the weird thing that I think is also kind of interesting about the way that the Roosevelts think about relationships
is that hand was [ __ ] devoted to Franklin she was always with him she helped him with
everything and when she like she had a heart attack or a stroke going to the hospital he never visited her and when
she died he didn't go to her funeral oh wow so he just like forgot about her in like a in like that fleeting
relationship kind of way which I think is is really sad and her life is sad but
like we said before Franklin was President four times he died during his fourth term pretty early into his fourth
term he was in Warm Springs Georgia and guess who he was with when he died
Eleanor no he's with Lucy Mercer the girl like woman that he had the affair with 20 years ago like 20 to 30 years
ago that started the whole thing they started to see each other again and Eleanor's daughter Anna had had kind of
helped arrange that because they loved each other and Anna saw that Lucy made her dad happy when her dad was like
super stressed out and her mom never made him happy that way you know they hadn't been a long time even though that
the Roosevelts loved each other they still didn't have that like it just was you know different
so after FDR dies Eleanor is you know out on her own
um hick writes some books for young adults she wrote a book on Helen Keller and Eleanor actually arranged for her to meet Helen Keller so that book is like
still up there and was pretty popular Eleanor was in her late 60s and early 70s and she was still traveling the
world so she was working for the United Nations under Truman and then Eisenhower took away her actual job with the UN she
volunteered with it after that and so she went everywhere she went to Russia the Middle East Asia just all over the
world into her into her 70s and she would visit hick in her small apartment in Hyde Park near the Roosevelt home
from time to time and hick was very sick with her diabetes she had arthritis she couldn't see very well so
she really couldn't go anywhere she just kind of stayed like near Eleanor's home for the end yeah and
um eventually Eleanor got sick with tuberculosis one fun thing is in the
hospital she was like okay I'm ready to die and the nurse said you should wait until God is ready for you and er said
utter nonsense which is cute a cute thing to say and she ended up being able to go home and she died in New York in
on November 7th 1962 at the age of 78. Eleanor is buried with Franklin in Hyde
Park so obviously this is devastating for like a lot of people she was like the first lady of the world everybody
really loved her um obviously hick especially and although she was very sick she lived
another five years and during that five years she did more writing and kind of put it around the town next to where
where Eleanor was buried and during this time is when you know she curated her
letters and donated them to the museum and all of those things and hick died on May 1st 1968
in her will she gave her favorite granddaughter of Eleanor's the royalties to her Helen Keller book and they've
amounted to like you know over 80 000 so she was able to you know finally give someone some money and earn some money
from her writing and she put in her will that she wanted to be cremated and have her ashes scattered by you know a tree
to help the trees grow but her ashes went and claimed and they were buried in
the mass unclaimed dreams plot in the Rhinebeck Cemetery about 15 minutes from Hyde Park which sucks and so
later after the letters came out and after people started learning more about hick and Eleanor's relationship er's
biographer and some other women would plant a tree in the cemetery um and put a little bench and they made
a little plaque and the plaque says I'm gonna cry now the plaque says Lorena Hickok hick March 1893 to May 1968 East
Troy Wisconsin to Hyde Park New York AP reporter author activist and friend of ER
oh and that's where her little pockets in the cemetery and I'm crying because it just it's very
passionate and interesting and it's like I said before like it's a I think Eleanor her full life and I don't think
that heck did and so that makes me really really sad this is the worst episode of a podcast
ever it was sad and it was traumatizing and I'm sorry to everyone
no I think it's hitting for me so many feelings I'm
being honest you know I've I've uh the impetus for this podcast
which I don't know if we've even discussed here was a relationship that I
was in that was very I want to describe as Soulful that was obviously
going to it had to end yeah
and there's a quality to your story that really hit home for me when it comes to
that which is the universe putting two people together
in the moments when they really really really need each other
knowing full well that those circumstances that also brought you together other circumstances that are
going to tear you apart yeah totally which is sad oh it is sad but I think
it's sad and then it's hopeful because then you can you know you can live many lives and have many
you know just don't kill people just love a lot of people
and they feel like that you know that's what Eleanor did and Hiking I think you know unfortunately unfortunately she had
her great love and it was Eleanor so yeah it was that was that was that was kind of it for her and I'm happy that
we're telling her story in you know many different books in many different ways because it's such an important part of
part of History to be like you know this this relationship during this time and you know the Doris Karen's Goodwin book is called
um it's called No No Ordinary time because that's what we're talking about like this is a real special time in history
and a real special like a relationship and a thing for the entire world and that during this time there was love as
well it's it's like I think really hopeful and sad and interesting and next week
I'm gonna do something horrible I need to find something that is like very violent again and get more violence into
mine you know what what I was also thinking of was um Diana
yeah because I mean obviously our husbands were dramatically different Franklin was arguably the best president
the US has ever had Charles was useless and didn't do anything but like they
both ended up in some ways becoming kind of the flag bearer for their husbands
and their countries and yeah very interesting becoming their own
Powerhouse independent of their husbands essentially absolutely absolutely I don't feel like
I'm gonna do Diana because she's been done to death part of the book there's so many [ __ ] things about her leave
her alone thank you babe I agree I'm gonna let her let her rest for a minute and a half
um that poor lady yeah um cool well thanks Taylor
um I am you know I I'm going to dwell on this I'm actually leaving after this to
drive to Dallas for a family reunion and there's gonna be two things that I'm you
left me with I'm Legit going to be dwelling on the entire drive one is the concept of living the [ __ ] out of your
life which I think I've been sleepwalking through most of that first yeah a little bit and I'm coming out of
it and this story really helped reinvigorate that piece and the other is
I'm never gonna forget this title empty without you the intimate letters of Lorena Hickok and Eleanor Roosevelt I
don't even know that book I don't think I could handle it emotionally what a beautiful titled book and when you read that quote
I was like they talk to each other like this that's incredible
yeah it's so beautiful and so lovely and I'll write you a really nice letter later
today that tells you that you're the best I appreciate that you are not gonna like this because I don't I know you well
enough to know that you are not a huge fan of Ronald Reagan but I did go to Reagan's uh Presidential
Museum I was living in L.A that's cool his love letters to Nancy
were like this they were are there really incredible and they're they're all over the place and just go back go
around and read them because he was always on the move you know doing his thing but he wrote incredible letters to
to his wife and they're they're definitely worth a read I definitely want to go I want to go to all of the
presidential museums his has an Air Force One too right yeah but it's like the old no I know but yeah is it cool
it's under 747 oh it's awesome yeah it's it's uh they had Air Force One they have Marine One you walk into this giant
hanger that has a cafe and it's it's and it's I'm trying to remember what city it's in in California I can't remember
wherever it is though it faces this Bluff that is stunning you ha you're in
this Hangar that's all glass based like on the side of a cliff it's an absolutely fantastic I get to go Nixon's
library is also very close to here too and I just find it delightful that Nixon's from Costa Mesa because I imagine him like with an umbrella and
it's raining on just him because he's like from this beautiful place in California yeah
um and also my I'm going to New York in July and I will be 35 minutes from Hyde Park so I will report back because I'm
gonna go visit that I'm going to visit Lorena's plaque I'm gonna cry a lot um I will share photos so when I do that
later so cool well thank you farz for this have a safe trip to Dallas
um while you're there go to the JFK um Museum about the assassination there's there's a place where you can go
and stand at the window that Lee harveyors at you can do that and uh I
want to remind everyone to like And subscribe on all the things find us at Doom to fill pod on Facebook and Twitter
and Instagram and keep listening thank you keep
listening we'll leave you with keep listening thank you I'll be funnier I keep saying that I don't get funnier I'm
gonna go cry I'm gonna weep I'll talk to you later I'm gonna go ahead and stop recording