We are diving back into history with a re-release of our 8th episode as we unravel the intricate tale of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg. Join us in revisiting this captivating story that delves into espionage, controversy, and the enduring questions surrounding justice in the midst of the Cold War. Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/doomedtofailpod/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/doomedtofailpod Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@doomedtofailpod TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@doomed.to.fail.pod Email: doomedtofailpod@gmail.com #ColdWarHistory #RosenbergsLegacy #PodcastRewind
We are diving back into history with a re-release of our 8th episode as we unravel the intricate tale of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg.
Join us in revisiting this captivating story that delves into espionage, controversy, and the enduring questions surrounding justice in the midst of the Cold War.
#ColdWarHistory #RosenbergsLegacy #PodcastRewind
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/doomedtofailpod/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/doomedtofailpod
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@doomedtofailpod
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Email: doomedtofailpod@gmail.com
Hi Friends! Our transcripts aren't perfect, but I wanted to make sure you had something - if you'd like an edited transcript, I'd be happy to prioritize one for you - please email doomedtofailpod@gmail.com - Thanks! - Taylor
hi friends Taylor from Doom to failed this week we are doing three re-releases in a row cuz we're taking a little break
um we're tired um this one is the story of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg if you saw
the movie appenheimer I Didn't I forgot but I will probably eventually I think
they're mentioned or they may not be but either way Ethel's brother did work um on the Manhattan Project and shared some
information with them and it's still I think a little bit up in the air whether or not what they did with was actually
legitimately spying but it sounds like they did it and they were executed in the United States on the same day and it
is a big deal to have a married couple there's a lot of you
know communist sympathizing and post World War II just stuff that
you know we all kind of went through I mean I didn't because I wasn't there but like you know we're recuperating from it
probably forever here in America anyway enjoy this episode if you have any questions or any thoughts we're at Doom
toil pod gmail.com and at Doom toil pod and all the socials hope you enjoy re relases of week a matter of the people
of State of California versus orthal James Simpson case number ba09 and so my
fellow Americans ask not what your country can
do for you ask what you can do for I don't think you
[Music] doad [Music]
so what do you have for us today Taylor okay well I mentioned that our red between our two is being
executed and for crimes so we will talk about that and I wanted to ask you a
question bars in the world right now um what are you afraid of so I I have three
things that are part of the story that are sort of Evergreen existential threats that people are afraid of um I
have new one that I'm afraid of but right now is there anything like globally that you're afraid
of globally that I'm afraid of global awfulness what could ruin the
whole world I mean okay like obviously like a nuclear bomb going off that's it D ding ding ding ding ding ding D ding
that's the correct answer okay well there you go so today we're talk about three things that you should be afraid of one it's communism but not really
because communism is just a red herring for other things two is nuclear war which I'm am very scared of and three is
electric chairs so like you're not probably gonna die in an electric chair but we'll talk about it and how awful it is those are three things that are scary
I'm also currently afraid of AI just in general and I'm kind of afraid of everything so just wanted to put that
out there so Taylor do you think that if we were to go to war that they would use
like the other country would use nukes on Joshua Tree I don't well okay I'll
we'll talk about that in a second I don't think I'm far I'm I think I'm close enough that yes I think I'm [ __ ]
but I'll we'll talk about that okay in a second okay so today we're going to talk about Julius and Ethel Rosenberg who are
two American citizens who were killed in the electric chair for selling nuclear secrets to the Soviet Union I don't know
if selling is the right word they gave them to the Soviet Union so some of our
red flags for this couple they seem like a pretty normal couple like they you know loved each other they had two kids
um they were pretty like you know innocent looking innocent seeming but the red flags are you know they're Communists card carrying Communists in
America in the 40s and 50s which is not like a great thing to be because it is McCarthyism people are mad at Communists
and they went further than just you know attending rallies and wanting like a more socialist equal Society like a lot
of young Communists did um because the actual red flag is they were spies so
being a spy is not good for your family especially in this case some of the
sources that I use I listened to a podcast called Civics 101 about Espionage and the rosenbergs I watched
half of a documentary that their granddaughter made she made it in the early 2000s it's called heir to an
execution and I only watched half of it because she was very much like they're innocent I can't believe all this
happened and like they're not innocent like I know that like nobody wants their grandparents to be Soviet spies but they
were it's it's a it's a way cooler story than they're innocent like I would yeah
it's like who cares it has no impact on you in today's like right now it's over I mean yeah I think it's kind of it's
kind of cool rather than being like let's exonerate them being like yeah they were spies they did all this cool spy [ __ ] it was bad but yes um and then
also watch an American Justice show on the rosenbergs and then Wikipedia and chat gbt for some filler so that's those
are my sources but let's talk about who they were so Julius and Ethel um they were you know a couple in New York City
Julius was born on May 12th of 1918 his parents were Jewish immigrant immigrants
from Russia pre-or War I they ended up living on the Lower East Side which is
an awesome neighborhood where I lived as as well it definitely has ups and downs and this is like a downtime for for New
York City it's you know depression time it's it's not great um but Julius went to City College of New York he had got a
degree in electrical engineering and he began to get involved into leftwing politics while he was in college
and mostly like labor activism protests against the rise of fascism so all stuff
that we're seeing over seeing now you know um people try to unionize and not
be fascist so similar times repeating itself um Ethel was born Ethel greeng
glass in 1915 she was also interested in the Arts she wanted to be an opera singer by all
accounts she was really good at it wanted to be like an actor or a singer but ended up um being a secretary and
she started to get interested in labor relations and she met Julius when she joined the young communist League where
he was a leader in like so is this not the point in time when it's dangerous to join the
Communist yeah okay so they knew what they were doing they were agitators yeah
yes yes so we're coming up to the time when you know Senator McCarthy is doing
the like the the Red Scare on on like a federal level and this is like in New
York City so they don't cross paths with him but he definitely you know tainted the water for for being a communist
being like a bad thing and there's like some some like stock footage I think in the documentary that I watched where you
know there's like a communist parade and they're like join the Communist party and people are like jering at them so
it's like a thing um it's also wait actually this is actually kind of what I'm going to come up next is so Julius
and eel were married in 1939 she was 24 he was 21 and and it was a hard
depression time crazy poverty you see people on bread lines like nobody has a job so there's a lot of radicalizing for
a lot of people and communism was attractive because it has the ideas of
like an ideal Society where everybody you know shares what they have so there's no more starving people on the
street wa yeah can I can I Sid trck you real quick of course what do you think
about communism I think it's a good idea but I don't think I think you shouldn't have someone in charge who takes all the
money which is like what we're doing now with capitalism but I do think that you should take care of each other so I
think I mean I feel like I would say more like Democratic socialism is makes
more is more sense in practice but I like the idea of not letting people starve and not having
billionaires okay what do you think I think that it's a great concept if you
completely negate human decision making and will in
desire out of the equation yeah because there's always GNA be someone who wants more or whatever and like I do too like
I don't want to you know yeah but I do like the idea of not letting people starve if if we were if
we were better it would be a great concept yeah exactly exactly people can't handle it I think it's a good a
good thing to say yeah and so actually I have a quote from Jay Edgar Hoover about
communism and he said communism is in reality is not a political party it is a
way of life an evil and malignant way of life it reveals a condition akin to
disease that spreads like an epidemic and like an epidemic a quarantine is necessary to keep it from infecting this
nation so um which made me laugh also because quarantine is good a good metaphor when it's on your side but then
they also like people don't want to quarantine was actually an epidemic so that made me laugh a little bit
so they're in this place where they're idealizing young Communists dreaming of a socialist country um and they believed
that the Soviet Union was the answer to this problem so they really are like
they think it's perfect over there and either they don't know or they don't see the bad things so either they like
didn't see all of the starving millions of people starve to death during the war or they didn't see all the poverty and
the things that are happening under under communism over there so they just really think it's it's perfect and you
know in theory I wrote you know in theory it makes sense but doesn't work because people are awful what we just
talked about y um so they get married at the beginning of World War II and almost
right away um you know the crime part of their story starts so their case became
a symbol for fear and paranoia around the Cold War around communism and you know people many of
their supporters said that the rosenbergs were kind of set up for political Witch Hunt um it's been kind
of a controversial case you know since since it happened happened and we'll talk about exactly what that means but
there are you know despite all of the ongoing debate I'll just say this now so like there's there's some stuff that was released in the mid 2000s so despite all
the back and forth since their case for like 50 years or so the stuff that's released pretty much proves that they
did do it they did they were Soviet spies he um Julius he definitely was
involved in passing nuclear secrets to the Soviet Union and it confirmed that he had a central role on this Espionage
so they definitely did the thing they were accused of and then the question is like what about the Zeitgeist around
their story you need you need get into how they had access this material right
yeah okay yeah so here's what were they
accused of doing and how did they do it so involves like their whole lives all the people that they know and they were
convicted of conspiracy to commit Espionage and passing Atomic Secrets they're part of a spiry ring that
included Americans and um some Soviet citizens who shared military secrets and
nuclear weapons um during World War II Julius worked in the Army signal Corps laboratory in New Jersey where he had
access to classified documents so that's where he kind of gets it from and she
ended up being a secretary there as well and so she her one of her like big
things is typing up all these notes and typing up and copying everything and send to the Soviet Union immediately he starts passing
information to uh this to the Soviet Union um via his wife other members of
the spiry Ring um and now World War II is over and it's the Cold War so the
Cold War lasted from 1945 do you know when the Cold War ended if um if I had to guess it had to
be like the 70 or no 80 it would have been Reagan Era so like 84 was 91 oh wow
yeah which feels late that like that feels late for me because I was like alive during the Cold War I feel like i' seen something that was such a long time
ago but just took a little bit of time line so World War I was the end of the
Russian Empire and then towards the end of World War I there was a Russian Civil War that went from 1917 to 1922 and then
1922 it became the Soviet Union which was the USSR and then after it dissolved
in 1991 it became 15 separate countries and that's where like we still have Russia now so there's more to that but
that's kind of what we're looking at um and far as what do you know about the Cold War like what do you feel like when
I say cold war just feel like it was an incredibly tense time that required a lot of people to like have cool heads
and yeah um I I I've seen a so my one of my
favorite movies my favorite like historical movies that's kind of stupid to say that way is 13 days which uh has
Kevin CER in it so you know it's going to be good but it's about it's about the 13 days of
the um cuan Missile Crisis and how so many pieces were moving and so many
people had to just not respond in anger or
irrationally and it's kind of a miracle we're not we didn't self-destruct at that time oh totally totally yeah the
things I know like the Bay of Pigs so nuclear weapons being real close to America butnik so people were kind of
freaking out because you know the Russians were the first to um put a satellite into space and people like
went outside and thought they could see it they were just like you know it was the first one it was really scary um
there was a race to the m to the Moon there was all the stuff in Cuba so yeah exactly a lot of fear about nuclear war
a lot of like hiding under desks and like at school and trying to figure out what would happen if it happened so I
also feel this is what I was going to say about living in Joshua Tree so I feel like very scared of nuclear war right
now maybe irrationally but also maybe irrationally and sometimes so I live next to a military base so one of like
the biggest military bases in the country is like next door so all the time I hear bombs going off so it'll
shake my house and sometimes at night they'll do like a ton of military training and there'll be tons of bombs in a row and it'll be really loud and
and shaky and and I can hear it so it definitely like makes it a Target and then also because I'm kind of crazy and
over and a little paranoid like whenever the internet goes out or like the the
power goes out I'm like this is it and I look to the to the Northwest and I look
for the for the cloud over LA because I'm like this is it I'll see the cloud from my house and I probably would see the cloud from my house I would
definitely see the flash when La gets nuked so um man you've really you've really done the math on this I did I I
mean I looked at up last night but I already think about it anyway so it's very tense and I feel tense right now
thinking about it and it it's like mostly just me it's not like everywhere over the media like it was during the
Cold War people were like really really afraid of this so so you think you're in New York
it's a very very tense time it's the Cold War things are scary the world World War II just ended but it didn't like end
everything and so Julius and Ethel during this time they're just living their lives they have two sons if you
saw them like out on the town you wouldn't think twice about them and a lot of it is is still speculation like
what they did but again like I said they did it they were spies um I watched the do in the dock with a granddaughter you
know she was like I wish that they could be um exonerated but they're not so
Julius becomes involved in the Communist party it's believed that in 1942 so
they've been married for a couple years is when he made contact with Soviet intelligent a intelligence agents and started to pass Secrets some of the
things that he is accused of doing sharing secrets with spies and one cool thing that they did is they would be
like okay you have to meet your like the Spy fars you know in this place
so they would take a Jello box and cut it in half in like a weird way and then you would take half of it and then they
would give the other half to the person you're supposed to meet and you would know it was them when your Jello boxes matched up so you got to just keep going
up to people with Jello boxes and like tap the jello box and see yes that seems a little bit suspicious but that's how
you know you're talking to the right person like the right the right person on the other end um he shared thousands of documents about Jeet Fighters
missiles like all those things so during this time like right after World War II especially we were still and during
World War II we were still allies with the Soviet Union but we weren't sharing secrets so like during World War II you
know we were um you know we were friends but um also like after World War II ends
then the Soviet Union stops being an ally um and as a child of the 80s you
know which is the Cold War apparently I just learned now I always picture you know Stalin and the Russians as the bad
guys and so I was I was surprised when you know to see the pictures of him and FDR in church held together you know I
think this was one of those um the enemy of my enemy yeah type things I don't think that they actually wanted to be on
friendly terms I think it was like we got to defeat Germany so let's just yes get it together yes um there are some
fun stories of like Church Hill and FDR going to Russia to or like the USSR to to meet with Stalin and when they uh get
there st's like come and stay in our nicest castle and it was like awful and church Hill's like freezing and like in
his underwear trying to find like vodka you know just like that that sounds delightful it could be
fun that sounds like that sounds like it could be a little movie comedy show yes
I think that I mean for better or worse I do would like a comedy of Churchill just like running around in his underwear because he did that a lot I
think that could be delightful to watch um so now so now when when he starts
actually passing this stuff we're actually in the cold war with the Russians so they're definitely like the the enemies at this point and another
big part of the story is that Ethel's brother was actually working on the Manhattan Project in Los Alamos so he
was like in it with like the the creation of the nuclear bombs so in 1947 the um FBI begins
investigating them and other card carrying Communists for suspected Espionage they were arrested in 19 50
and charged with conspiracy to commit Espionage David Greenglass who's Ethel's brother who worked at the Manhattan
Project is arrested first and then just rats out everybody and David Greenglass lives for
a long time he dies in like 2004 so he definitely like sold out his fellow
spies so that he would get a lighter sentence and in 1951 the rosenbergs are
tried and found guilty of Espionage so when they go through their things and find all the things that they that they
share with the Soviets they do find um a cross-section of the fat man bomb which is a bomb that was dropped on on
Hiroshima and then also in the documentary The granddaughter she's like she sees that picture in the National Archives and she's like oh my gosh like
there's no way that the Soviets could have made a thing from this this one little picture you know and you're like no I feel like
any nuclear secrets sharing is bad no there's not a Gray Line yeah there's no
there's no like oh this is this doesn't seem like a big deal like no it's a big deal if they that connection at all yeah
like it's a big deal so they're s sentenced to death and it's a big cultural moment because actually the
rosenbergs are the only people to be um executed for Espionage during technically peace time and so it was
like it was a cold war but it wasn't like an actual like during a World War where people were executed like you know
kind of a lot so it's a big cultural moment some people are really really mad at them for sharing these secrets and
I'm mad too like I get it some people think they're innocent and some people is like how mad are we
that we need Martyrs is the punishment equal to the crime was there a crime did the brother throw them under the bus so
they look so nice so there's so many things that people are you know going back and forth upon but you know
they did it and they were guilty so it also comes up do you ever read the Bell jar by Sylvia PL no so it's like book
about like a woman who's depressed it's very there's a lot more to it sure but she also thinks about rosenberg's a lot
and so during in the beginning of the book she's like reading the paper and she sees that they've been um they've been executed and it kind of brings up
this feeling of isolation it could happen to anyone so that is kind of like the cultural feeling is like well anyone
could be convicted of being a spy it could be anyone it could be your neighbor you know kind of like making
people more suspicious of each other as well I don't know just look at your W2 does it say lost Alamos nuclear bunker
on it like if it doesn't then you're probably not likely totally I was wondering Taylor is any like given the
time period that we're in was there any hints of like maybe anti-Semitism played into the severity of their punishment
you know what I didn't look that up but possibly because it's definitely that also like another form of like being the
other you know there's so many otherism here like you're communist that's otherism you're Jewish that's otherism
like totally yeah you know I I I would imagine probably but I don't but I don't
didn't like read that specifically but that's a good call out and a good question um so in 1953 they're executed
in the electric chair at singing prison in New York do you know what happens when you're executed via the electric
chair so your heart stops um I'm not sure what the mechanics and physiology
of that are but I think that that's how you ultimately are killed yeah did you
did you ever see or read The Green Mile yes so remember how like he like does
doesn't do the sponge on the guy's head and then like catches on fire so like a wet sponge needs to be involved so
electric chair was first used in the United States in the late 19th century so it involves strapping a person into a
chair electrodes attached to their head and legs and then administering a powerful electric shock so the wet
sponge stops it from catching on fire which is crazy and so there's so there's
usually two shocks when the first switch is flipped an electric current goes through your body body which causes the
muscle to contract and then you pass out so it just like shocks you and you pass
out and then the second switch is the one that like kills all your organs like
you said it kills your heart kills all your organs and then you die it can also
you know sometimes people you know get like severe burns and other injuries like while it's happening like it's not
it's not a not it's a very cruel way to die and julius's went fine as far as
Electric electric electri electrocution goes but eel did not so she actually had to be
shocked four times before she died and people saw smoke coming out of her head so um it was pretty awful the first jol
jolt didn't render her unconscious it took a couple more to end her life um they were not the electrodes were not
properly properly placed so the electricity rather than going to her vital organs went to her head so it's an
awful way to go and so it was P publicized that was botched execution
which definitely made it made like the debate even stronger as to be like why are we executing these people why are we
even doing cap cor capital punishment all of that so after their death was a big thing and
the questions are like what did they share do we kill spies this publicly um
I'm sure we do but you know maybe it's not always in the news they seem so normal did they do it so it's not all
100% And like it's not very clear everything they they did do which makes sense because you don't want to like put the Spy Secrets out but it's just like
these people were spies so in around 2005 the National Archives and Records Administration released a portion of the
grand jury testimony so it it shed some new light on the case and gave us some more details so it did confirm that
Ethel knew what she was doing when she typed up the documents so when she typed up and copied the secrets that Julius
was stealing from from work and her brother was stealing from um Los Alamos she knew what she was doing um it
confirmed that Julius was a big part of as spying um their code names were found in Soviet cables and the key witness was
eel's brother so he's the one that threw everybody under the bus and like toen everybody and got them got them executed
so that makes it all true and then some of the questions that like
I kind of want to end with is like so the red flags are like they were spies and they were
sending secrets to the Soviet Union which was bad but they believed they were doing a good thing because they
believed in this like utopian idea of like socialism and communism and they thought that that's was happening so
were they just like people who believed in a perfect Society were they traitors were they scapegoats for you know this
Cold War era thing and I in the end I think you kind of believe what what you want to believe I think they were kids
when they started they believed in a perfect Society but obviously crossed the line when they shared secrets and
a question that I had like late last night thinking about this is you know what is okay spying if you want a better world and you're spying for a better
world like is that justifiable but once you open the door to nuclear secrets
then I'm like then that's a hard no because I don't want anyone to know anything about nuclear secrets I don't want anyone to do it at all um I wish
that there was never any nuclear anything so um that's where I think like for me I'm
like okay well I don't know if the public execution essentially was you know the right the right thing to do but
also I'm like they definitely did you know a bad thing um whether they knew
they were doing it or not you know what I mean I yeah I um what I was thinking
of was that and a lot of situations the um outcomes are very directly tied to
the actions so for example like with Lee boy Malvo or with John Muhammad getting
executed it's like that was directly tied to you did a really really bad thing people die because of it in this
case it's so far removed think of all the things that have to happen for the bad outcomes to actually be realized
like you have to steal the material you have to copy it you have to translate it you have to send it you have to tie
Jello cups together yeah hand it off they have to go out and backwards engineer develop it and then all of a
sudden then the bad outcome could be realized but the outcome is so the gravitas of that outcome is so heavy
that it kind of justifies the result yeah totally like exactly so the things
that you're doing aren't you're not shooting someone from the back of a car you know like you're
not like doing things like like that but you what you're doing is directly going to affect no matter how long it takes
the possibility of like Global Annihilation yeah you know and like this and then that obviously like then we
have this tense Cold War for 40 years then we have today when there's like I just like hit my microphone we have
today when there's like balloons and you know you know whatever all this stuff means but it's it's pretty scary and I
and I think the rosenbergs had like a direct um effect on on getting getting those secrets and getting that stuff
over to to the to the Soviet Union so um it's a scary thing that they did and and
whether or not they like realized the global implications I think that yeah you're right like they did a bad thing
yeah I um so I for again I don't me and T don't talk about what we research
ahead of time like I had long ago look gone down this spy rabbit hole and I
remember thinking this same thought about this guy named Robert Hansen I don't know if you ever heard of him before but he was an FBI intelligence
analyst and he did the same thing he passed on um I don't know what it was a
long time ago I don't remember what exactly he passed on but I remember reading about his punishment I was like I was like At first I was like man
that's heavy he got he was um put in adx super Max and forence which I don't know
if know much about that but it's a terrifying place it sounds like like that's where the 9/11 people ended up
that's where Timothy McVey te kazinski um El Chapo like it
is you're are a dead human walking there like it is the worst of the worst
punishments and yeah the time I was like I like that's so heavy extreme yeah but
then you look at like again the downstream impact of the decisions that guy made and it's like
kind of makes sense yeah kind of makes sense and like maybe he didn't even know
that that imagine that that was going to be the outcome yeah maybe but like those
little things and like they they snowball into potentially being a really really really bad thing
yeah yeah yeah so hopefully this this this episode gets published tomorrow and
we're not annihilated by nuclear war but we'll see it could today wait how why
I'm sitting under my desk how are they how were they doomed to fail um I think because they started to they started
with this idealistic view of the world and and being better but they didn't have all the details so maybe the Doom
devell is not knowing all the details because they thought that the Soviet Union was this perfect place when it wasn't which we know and they were very
idealistic and so they just went down this path of trying to get somewhere
that was impossible it was impossible to you know have a perfect communist country and
it's impossible to you know have a better world with having nuclear secrets
shared you know like keeping nuclear secrets hostage and like kind of
glooming that above everybody I think is is not a way to peace but I think that they were doomed and like they they
really wanted a peaceful world and they start they thought the way to do it was to kind of equalize this threat and um
once they kind of did that there was no turning back yeah you know and they you know they died on the same day their
their poor kids ended up in like homes and they're you know just they're like my mom was a normal mom you know but
you're like well she wasn't she wasn't yeah yeah kids if you think your
ideology is worth doing anything for chill out a little bit for real that's a
100% yes it'll I'll be okay like the pendulum always swings I know that
everything seems like the biggest deal possible it always always swings yes yes
and if someone starts to recruit you to doing things that are like secret then like you're probably gonna be in trouble
yeah and you should calm down yeah yeah so enjoy your glass of vodka um I know I
need I do need some vodka I'll buy some for when I do see
that mushroom cloud it's 9:31 a.m. over there isn't it uh yeah it is I don't
have any vodka but I can go buy some good good okay well thank you Taylor for
your story and thank you far I'm glad I think those tied together I I think we're talking about you know the big
things and and why people do do go off the edge maybe we should talk about what
we're going to maybe we should discuss our topics before we do them we could do that I mean yeah but like I don't want
to change my topic because I just can't research two things in a week yeah that's fair that's fair we'll figure it
out but thanks everyone for listening and thank you for your feedback and thank you for your reviews on on Apple
podcasts please do that if you haven't already please tell people I'm try I'm
trying to tell everyone that I know but please tell more people email us that do tood gmail.com if you have any ideas
follow on social media at Doom toil pod thanks Taylor thanks I hope you feel better I hope so too I'm going to go
ahead and kill the recording [Music]
okay