Happy Presidents’ Day! We are not covering Presidents, but we can probably swing it to be a Presidents’ day episode because we are talking the DC Sniper and the espionage case of Julias and Ethel Rosenberg. Are we all going to die? Yes. Could it be a random shot at the gas station or a nuclear war? Also yes. Great! Join us, we’re freaking out. Follow us on Instagram & Facebook! @doomedtofailpod
Happy Presidents’ Day! We are not covering Presidents, but we can probably swing it to be a Presidents’ day episode because we are talking the DC Sniper and the espionage case of Julias and Ethel Rosenberg.
Are we all going to die? Yes. Could it be a random shot at the gas station or a nuclear war? Also yes.
Great! Join us, we’re freaking out.
Follow us on Instagram & Facebook! @doomedtofailpod
https://www.instagram.com/doomedtofailpod/
https://www.facebook.com/doomedtofailpod
Some sources:
Civics 101 - Federal Courts: Espionage and the Rosenbergs
Heir to an Execution: A Granddaughter's Story (2004) - IMDb
Wikipedia
Chat GPT for some more help
The Rosenbergs American Justice
Rosenberg photos via the Creative Commons
Lee Boyd Malvo via the NYT
Mildred looking awesome via UTHSC
John Allen Muhammad via Wikipedia
John & Lee via Boston University
Hi Friends! Our transcripts aren't perfect, but I wanted to make sure you had something - if you'd like an edited transcript, I'd be happy to prioritize one for you - please email doomedtofailpod@gmail.com - Thanks! - Taylor
0:19
welcome to zoom to fail the podcast where I reveal a new issue I have every
0:24
single week I'm farz I'm joined here by my co-host Taylor hi Taylor how are you I'm doing well how are you you don't
0:33
sound well yeah I'm not I think I have that respiratory virus RSV thing
0:41
um and it's um every week there was there's something going on every single week two weeks ago no electricity a week
0:47
ago in Florida this week RSV um next week I'll probably get hit by a truck we'll see but
0:55
yeah good time no no don't think it's coming threes if you're over it maybe that's it maybe that is it yeah that's a
1:02
really good point yeah it's all it's all uphill from here I think you're fine yeah um so yeah on on that note uh I will say
1:10
my drink for today is tea and honey because yes I need it that's a good one
1:17
that's good for you you do need that I apologize I'm sniffling a little bit too so apologies for all this nipples mine are allergy related I think but
1:25
um we're gonna stuff a lot during this episode I imagine so I know you're gonna go first but just
1:30
to get us prepped my drink is uh once again circling back to our episode one we're gonna go straight vodka because
1:37
we're gonna talk about some Russians so we will get to it when we get to it but I'll let you go first lovely and I'm
1:44
gonna start out I think I can start out by saying congratulations to our good friends Beth and Jay
1:50
who I just saw that yesterday who are engaged it seems like it's it seems like
1:55
I mean it's been a week so it feels like it's public enough now it's where we can actually say stuff so congratulations
2:00
guys congratulations we love you guys so much so cool that is gonna be a fun fun
2:06
wedding oh my God I can't wait yeah um so hold on one sec Taylor
2:12
ours is pausing to cough and go yell at his dog
2:18
that's happening right now I'm looking at first office he has a white chair which is a very very brave
2:25
he's back and I'm back great okay I narrated while you were
2:31
gone what'd you say you'll find out when you listen to it okay so
2:38
today's kind of a special episode on the True Crime front because it's kind of a
2:44
double whammy I'm going to be discussing two different types of relationships that were deemed
2:49
to fail one is a romantic relationship between our main antagonists of the story and
2:55
the other is a father-son type relationship that was also doomed to fail so I know double whammy day
3:04
no good so sorry I interrupt you as far as but I forgot to tell you that I have a note for you for I know I'm personally
3:11
not taking notes but um I have a note from you just kidding um from my husband wanted to hear more of the of the gross
3:18
stuff he said I want to hear the gross stuff so well unfortunately this one doesn't
3:24
uh well then tell them to stay tuned next week's I have a pretty good one for next week this one's okay like slap Dash
3:30
robbery style stuff going on so um that one me and you were aligned
3:35
there okay cool so the key denominator of both of these failed relationships is a singular
3:42
[ __ ] named John Allen Muhammad Taylor
3:48
does that name ring a bell no okay
3:53
maybe later not yet you may also know them him them by their media branded
4:00
name either the Beltway Sniper or the DC sniper you okay yes yeah this is this is
4:08
that's not that doesn't sound like slap Dash robbery it sounds like horrible I know but I know but I didn't know how to
4:15
like say it without giving away okay great very great
4:22
um so this one's like this one's like a super
4:27
meaty topic there's so many moving pieces to it I could have probably researched this for like a solid week
4:33
and still not have gotten to everything that was going on here there's so many details a lot of things going on people
4:38
are moving between different states different countries different people coming in and out of everybody's lives I'm really doing like the top level
4:44
version of this I'm gonna reference a podcast that was a part of my sources for this later on
4:51
um it's called um you're wrong about and I don't know if they're still active really because I know that there was
4:56
like the team kind of stopped doing the shows together like I highly recommend checking them out especially for their
5:02
episodes on the DC sniper case because they did it in I think it was four parts probably
5:07
somewhere around eight to ten hours worth of content just on this I'm gonna wrap this up in 30 minutes so obviously
5:12
there's a lot that I'm gonna be leaving out so yeah I think I listened to an entire series called the DC sniper yeah
5:18
yeah on you're wrong about no a different one like the podcast was like
5:23
a called DC sniper it was like you dive into it yeah so much there's a lot so many details yeah exactly
5:30
um so the other party to this crime was I'm just gonna go ahead and call him a
5:35
child his name is Lee Boyd Malvo and I'll start at the top by addressing
5:41
one part of this that based on how this was framed in the media so this was
5:46
always framed in the media as terrorism I looked at the actual formal definition of terrorism and the definition of it is
5:53
the intentional use of violence and fear to achieve political or ideological aims
5:59
the events we're discussing started five months after September 11th so at that point nearly everything was
6:08
called yeah if you remember Taylor like this was around the time the anthrax thing was going on too yep everyone was
6:15
scared I mean obviously you know I feel like that and then I had it I mean
6:21
I was in I was in New York on 9 11. but I was in a bubble I was in college
6:27
and I didn't know anything about the world really and I hadn't even really like defined terrorism at all you know
6:32
it wasn't aware of everything that's going on in the world until then you
6:37
know so and then I was scared yeah yeah so I feel like I feel like people were like telling me that like my guy friends
6:44
were gonna be drafted you know like we were who there's all these rumors and like weird
6:49
[ __ ] going on so yeah everything was terrorism then I remember we talked about the you being in New York on 9 11
6:55
you seem to have gotten exposure that me being in Texas definitely did not get
7:01
um so that's awful in its own way but the um I'm gonna I bring up the
7:08
terrorism thing because I'm gonna I'm gonna put an alternate point on this and say that it was not terrorism because
7:15
this actually was not ideological or politically motivated in any way we
7:20
actually know why John in particular did what he did and I'm gonna frame this as John doing it because this is very
7:26
Charles Manson he where he like he controlled things I mean he was controlling a child so like he was the
7:31
antagonist in all this I'm gonna get into his motives at the
7:37
end actually because they're so stupid it'll it'll blow you away I'm gonna go through all this and then
7:42
you'll I'll get to the motivating you'll say that was it that was the plan and you was like all these people died for
7:48
this it's going to be kind of shitty to say the the other part of the whole
7:54
terrorism piece was hey it made better headlines it also they kind of had to
8:00
call it terrorism because they really really wanted to put John to death when they caught him and they did
8:06
spoiler alert so I mean it's been like 12 12 10 12 years so if you don't know
8:12
by now John Elmont was by the deaf that well also never mind
8:18
but like you keep going but that that's a that's a link between art being put to death is a link between
8:23
our stories today so continue yes um so I'm gonna start with John and I'm
8:29
gonna say that like when as I was learning about this guy and reading about him he really reminded me of Donald Trump
8:35
like in the sense that if he's not right or if he is challenged in any way
8:41
he doesn't understand how to deal or cope with that like he just goes Megaton on
8:48
whatever is in his way like like taking a Sharpie and changing the way path of a hurricane
8:55
I was just talking about that last week when I was at that conference in Florida and I was like that was my favorite moment of the Trump presidency
9:01
what are you talking about you don't know everything oh my God
9:07
but yeah totally I can't imagine having someone like that like as your dad or as your husband like you'd just be like
9:13
yeah um and yeah like he goes he owes Megaton
9:19
in any situation and there's a specific reason why he goes Megaton in this situation in the in the DC Beltway area
9:26
this all goes over a span about eight months it actually doesn't even start in
9:31
DC we'll get into like where it actually begins it culminates in DC and that's why we're kind of we kind of referenced
9:37
it that way um but much like every one I covered like I mentioned the motivations on why he does what he does turn out to be
9:44
ultimately incredibly stupid and don't actually he doesn't achieve his goals which good he shouldn't
9:52
I'm not going to go much into the John's early life other than some details that will become relevant later on John was
9:59
actually born with the last name Williams he changed his last name after joining the Nation of Islam
10:05
I should know I don't know if you know this Taylor but the Nation of Islam is listed on the Southern Poverty laws
10:10
website with a hate group designation huh there's a lot of the material that I
10:15
read out there that comes up later on in John's life as he becomes more and more indoctrinated
10:21
that has to do with ethno pure pureism I don't know what you'd call it yeah just
10:28
like like anti race it was it's all bad like it's none of it's like none of people motivates
10:34
like a mind that is like full of butterflies and you know rainbows like it cultivates a mind of like everybody's
10:39
the enemy [ __ ] everybody that's not me and I have a question that I feel like I
10:45
don't want to make sound wrong but did he did that happen in prison I feel like
10:51
it didn't okay because I feel like people convert to Islam in prison and get radicalized
10:58
no no this came about because of the second point I'm gonna bring up which is his um second wife Mildred who seems to
11:05
be a great woman and she ran across the Nation of Islam and really liked the clean living aspect of it less the
11:12
ideological components of it and um brought John into it as a result of that okay cool
11:19
so yeah the second point is that he's been married and divorced twice and Mildred is the biggest focal point of
11:25
the story that's the second life and the last point that it's that John
11:32
was in the military for a very long time and he was actually given multiple Awards as an expert Marksman yeah yeah
11:39
not great for DC come in handy no we'll see so let's go ahead and circle back to
11:44
wife number two so let's look talk about a tortured woman
11:50
um again you're married to essentially Donald Trump but like without the money it's not it's worth noting that most of
11:56
what we know about Jon comes from Mildred like he's not very loquacious as it comes to discussing his
12:03
own life so we mostly know about her or him through her
12:08
in 1983 Mildred was living in Baton Rouge Louisiana she was 23 years old and working just going to church by all
12:15
accounts she's kind of a simple person doesn't have much in the way of romantic relationship experience and it's at this
12:21
time she beats John at a grocery store and John asks her out and when I was when I was single for
12:28
like five minutes of my life my friend told me to go to the grocery store and stand in the vegetable aisle to meet me
12:33
men he was like you'll know that they're responsible and that they care about themselves and that's the best place to
12:39
find guys is that where you met Juan it's not but I don't know it's a terrible idea it's weird standing there
12:46
I didn't do it I'm just saying that's not weird I'm gonna look I'm gonna look up a picture
12:52
of Mildred Mildred okay continue I see her so at this point John teased this up
13:00
with her as wanting to jump straight into a relationship it kind of reminds me of like an old timey courting thing where this was a
13:07
date to marry thing and John basically teases up that way for Mildred as well she's not very experienced in
13:13
relationships he kind of says let's just get serious so they get serious
13:19
from what John did tell Mildred over the course of our time together he didn't have an easy childhood his mom died when
13:25
he was young and he went off to live with a grandfather who was apparently a piece of work
13:30
he's a closed book from here on out he doesn't like revisiting his past but
13:36
given what we learned about his character later on all this kind of tracks shitty childhood
13:42
there's a lot of details there but we'll just leave it at that okay so red flag number one as the
13:48
relationship gets serious Mildred learns that John is already married to someone named Carol
13:53
oh he has two sons I don't get this I don't
14:00
Maybe maybe I just don't have as much time as
14:05
other people but carrying on one relationship is hard enough can your relationship with children is hard or carrying a
14:12
relationship with children and then a side relationship is how do you have the mental maybe I'm lazy that's what it is
14:19
yeah no you need to really commit to it I think it's part of it yeah and is there like a what okay
14:25
nowadays just for our listeners is there a way to check if someone's married I guess I feel like
14:31
are people not telling people they're married like can you do a full background check on
14:36
someone when they pick you up at the grocery store I mean I would there's gonna be other signs right is there an indentation on
14:43
their wedding ring finger like poor Mildred yeah seriously
14:49
um yeah she learned all this through a friend she confronts John who explains the marriage is falling apart she buys
14:55
it and the relationship carries on there's so many details between these two facts all of which make Mildred
15:02
sound like a saint and John like he should be very grateful to be with her but whatever she gets back with John
15:08
a lot of interesting things happen here and then ultimately Mildred breaks up with John this is before they're married
15:15
so they get married so they get back together exactly uh yeah later he
15:20
committed sort of get back together and then in 1988 they get married so did you take a divorced
15:28
yeah yeah yeah the Carol relation ended okay however it ended
15:34
okay so they're married now Mildred is pregnant with John's child
15:39
and learns that John is cheating on her with a 19 year old named Danielle
15:46
how old is John at this point John would be in his mid-30s
15:52
yeah uh he's been apparently seeing her for six months again I don't understand how
15:57
like God I'm just I don't am I like I'm doing things like how do you have these
16:03
strength and the energy to do this and like like planning a wedding in the middle of
16:10
that it's also hard yeah doing a prenatal care and it's a 19 year old so you know
16:16
that it's probably not just like dinners every now and then you probably gotta go to some shows like
16:22
I don't get I don't get it but Mildred learns about this and invites Danielle
16:28
over to the house to confront John there's a lot of details on glossing over it she doesn't invite her over she
16:33
goes and picks Daniel up she calls Danielle goes over to the house picks her up brings her back to her house to
16:39
confront John oh my God I love Mildred I'm looking at her picture this whole time and she just looks awesome so I'm
16:45
just like imagining her being mad and she just looks so cool she's like a beautiful headscarf on and all of her photos she looks she's just she's like a
16:51
boss she turns out okay I think at the end of the story from these pictures of her and so I'm just like yeah good on
16:57
you male dress yeah it's hilarious so like John comes home Daniel is in the
17:02
kitchen Mildred is like what you know John's like what's for dinner it's like go in the kitchen we'll find out you go
17:09
to the kitchen and sees Danielle this is incredible so also in the middle of all
17:14
this one of John's Friends James apparently he was supposed to go pick up lotto
17:20
tickets for for James and so James came over to the house in the middle of all this to pick up his lotto tickets he's
17:27
sitting in the living room like I just keep picturing this guy James like what's going on like what the hell
17:34
did I just walk into yeah he probably let he come over and get something leftover dinner
17:39
um anyways they hash us out John says I'm
17:45
over it with Danielle sorry Danielle we have to break up because here's my six month pregnant wife that I have to stick
17:50
with um and then apparently James drives Danielle home [Laughter]
17:58
for James City is he doing okay okay no no I I actually be kind of a me cute if um
18:06
James had capitalized on it but I guess Stephanie
18:11
um anyways they end up having a kid his name is Little John little I know
18:17
not LOL they later have a second child a daughter named Selena uh and in general
18:23
it just seems like John mostly ignored the responsibilities of being a good husband and Mildred kind of was on her
18:28
own to raise the kids in mind the house because also throughout all this it seems like implicit that Jon is also
18:34
just cheating on Mildred constantly is it a job sort of sort of they start a business
18:41
together where John's apparently really good with cars and he would just go around and fix cars but like that's also
18:46
how he would and being with women yeah I mean that's how you do it it's not
18:52
that he's super human you just ignore your responsibilities and then during the work day while you're stopping by at
18:59
multiple women's houses yeah there's also like just kind of
19:05
hilarious but like weird Side Stories going on here about John's Behavior so one time apparently he went to the
19:10
Salvation Army and just brought home some random dude he befriended there and said that this guy's gonna be living with him
19:17
like weird it's it's sound I wrote down the sound likes me Homer Simpson would do it kind
19:24
of is though it just shows up with some dude
19:30
um and so obviously it's kind of implicit at this point that John is in some capacity emotionally abusing
19:36
Mildred he seems like someone who just can't handle any lack of control
19:43
but it's a weird kind of abuse it's not like physical beatings it's not like just constantly screaming at her it's
19:49
just it's abuse done by hand-picking the [ __ ] out of her
19:54
it was also like I said before like it's also clear like she's also aware that there's cheating going on at this time like he's doing everything to make her
20:01
feel like a second class citizen her own home talks about everything the food how she
20:07
raised the kids pretty much anything that would come up you'd find a reason to just critique her about it
20:13
John suggests that they divorce at this point which by all accounts devastates
20:19
Mildred she's invested a lot in this yeah and she thinks about an ultimate decides
20:25
yeah okay that's probably a good move we should probably should do this he didn't expect that he wanted her to say
20:31
of course we're not gonna do like I love you you're so great like again psychological BS yeah right
20:39
uh doesn't work so he they do some couples counseling and
20:46
ultimately it's just decided that like this isn't milder puts her foot down at this point it's like I'm not doing this anymore we're 100 done
20:53
he does a bunch of [ __ ] because he lacks control he does a bunch of [ __ ] to make the divorce as bad as possible for her
20:59
not providing enough support for the kids and they also don't have a formal child custody arrangement in place so
21:07
they would just swap the kids back and forth and there was a story here that John came to the house one day and saw
21:13
the cupboards were full of food and this might have been what set him off because he thought that she was sleeping with
21:20
somebody else and that guy was providing for them because he wasn't because right money that he was providing wasn't
21:26
enough to fill the covers full of food that was what happened one of her friends came over to the house and saw
21:31
that Mildred had lost a bunch of weight and was like we're handling this right now and went to the store and bought her
21:37
whatever she needed that's what ended up happening yeah the idea is that the thought process was that he thought he
21:43
thought he lost that other element of control over her which was like I can control that but what you can actually eat which is an insane way to think
21:49
about humans and that's kind of what set him off so around this time she lets him have the
21:55
kids for the regularly scheduled custody thing and he keeps them and at the same
22:01
time empties their joint bank he counts completely I don't know yeah I watched a recent Unsolved Mysteries I think about
22:09
um kids who were kidnapped by a parent and it was really sad you know one parent
22:14
just like takes the kids and leaves the country or just disappears and the other parent you know never finds them or
22:21
knows where they are but can't go because it's dangerous and things like that so super sad and scary yeah apparently that's the most common way
22:27
kids get kidnapped I didn't know that I was I found out researching this ugh so there's a lot that goes on here
22:35
around like John calling and harassing Mildred and yada yada Mildred ultimately
22:41
whatever I'm not gonna go into the details about ultimately murder decides that she has to go live in a women's shelter hey she has no money
22:47
she feels threatened by John in his existence she ends up living under an assumed name
22:54
and going to live in this shelter all this is going on in Washington state okay so at this around this time
23:01
um Mildred's mother gets a house in Maryland um which for those that aren't familiar
23:07
with the geography of the area DC Maryland Virginia
23:13
it's all one thing like people who worked in DC live in Maryland they live in Virginia they bounce around back and
23:19
forth like it's basically one giant metro area and it's it's intentionally designed that way
23:25
so that's a little bit of foreshadowing about what's gonna come going back to John and the kids when
23:31
John got custody that day he almost immediately put them on a plane to Antigua
23:36
this will become relevant again shortly but the simplest version of what was going on here is that he put the kids on
23:43
this plane they go to Antigua and then he basically makes a living forging documents for Jamaican immigrants who are trying to immigrate to the U.S and
23:49
that's basically his life he just goes around forging documents taking care of the kids and that's kind of it for the
23:55
time being okay so let's go ahead and segue to the other main character of the story enter Lee boy novel so leave my
24:03
name is Awesome by the way it is right I feel like Malvo is a it's a word Malvo in Harry Potter somehow
24:09
I feel like it's like someone's name or it's like Draco Malfoy moved around or
24:15
it's like Tom Riddle or whatever just it feels very like a very Harry Potter name it does I'm gonna I went down a rabbit
24:21
all my mind of who that could have been um no he sounds like he designs very very nice like gator shoes you know yeah
24:29
okay it's very cool name so Lee was born in 1985 in Jamaica to a woman named Una
24:36
una was I mean I'm not going to go into a lot of details she sounds pretty shitty she sounds like a terrible mom
24:41
she's beat the hell out of this kid and just abandon him constantly you look at pictures of Lee which I would encourage
24:47
you to to try that um to me he just constantly has the eyes of like a scared
24:53
kid like an unloved scared child there's a lot of bounce around that
24:58
happens here Uno moves to Saint Martin leaving Lee at home with neighbor like
25:03
he's just abandoned constantly I mean she's doing it to make money and support the family
25:09
but like don't just leave your kid with random strangers there's there's weird stories that happen it's I mean I don't
25:16
know I'll do this for Juan because he wants to know their gross stuff at one point Lee like my friend's a cat who
25:22
comes over to the house and I'm gonna make some beat the cat because like he can't have a cat and
25:29
then like he beats the canceled it's bloody and then the cat finally goes away and then anytime the cat came over he had to beat him it's just why do this
25:37
that's terrible yeah um so long story short is that
25:43
eventually between Jamaica Saint Martin so on and so forth uni end up in Antigua did you find a picture of Lee
25:50
I did yes what'd you think he just looks he looks like I mean
25:56
tell me the pictures he's just like when I guess when the trial was it's just a kid you know and he just he looks very
26:02
sad it just looks like a sad kid yeah I know he does bad things
26:07
but he does look very sad he looks he makes me sad yeah same yeah so like I said they ended up
26:15
in Antigua and all because of you know his job wanted to make money there
26:21
um yeah I I wrote here that if this was like a movie or story about animals
26:28
written by Disney Lee would just be like a bastard Hound nobody would adopt at the shelter like he's just he just wants
26:34
I don't know it's it sucks so Fortune is quite an Antigua because
26:40
una decides that she wants to immigrate to the U.S and given John's side hustle or only hustle forging documents she
26:46
takes Lee to see John that's where the two come together for the very first time for whatever reason Lee starts going
26:52
over to John's to hang out and you know it seems like it's a pretty tight-knit immigrant Community there
26:59
tells Lee at one point that she basically left she left for Florida it doesn't tell me this is a pattern like
27:04
she was because of the phone call him he doesn't see her for a couple of days and then she's like I'm in another state another country yeah John figures out
27:11
what's going on and I don't know it seems like it's almost out of like altruism that he goes over there and
27:17
tells Lee to pack his things and come stay with him so he finally gives him the thing that he wants that father figure
27:23
so their Dynamic is one where Lee kind of takes care of the house and the kids while John does whatever it is that he
27:29
does so he kind of takes on like a housewife like approach to this like as
27:34
a year old or 12 year old no he's an old man he wouldn't like 13 14 I think but
27:39
um John being a military guy he just has this military mindset of you have to be
27:45
Stern strict and disciplined I only bring it up because when you're an aimless kid I can see why that
27:50
personality type would be alluring yeah like you'd want someone who takes charge gives you comfort and safety when your
27:56
whole life has been abused and cast aside by everyone who should have loved you right yeah
28:02
so ultimately John is arrested for forging documents John gets out of jail by Summit County
28:08
literally just walks out because it's easy living in Antigua and then John the kids and Lee all get
28:13
on a plane with forged documents and head to the U.S so
28:19
John takes the kids to Bellingham Washington and Lee goes to Florida to be with Uno
28:26
because una again had left to go to Florida I've actually been to Bellingham it is stunning it is one of it is so
28:32
beautiful it is I don't what's this something about oh my God Andy Griffin whatever that is
28:40
yeah what's that show isn't it just Andy Griffith yeah it's very small Towny it's very
28:46
scary lots of breweries um Northwest loves their breweries so
28:52
John moves into a homeless shelter with the kids which is noted as odd by anybody who observes this because For
28:58
Better or Worse homeless shelters don't really see a large influx of single men showing up with like a brood of children
29:03
like that's a that's kind of red flaggy right there yeah Mildred obviously reportedly kids
29:09
missing and so when John applies for food stamps the system flags this it
29:15
becomes aware of like be on the lookout for a single guy with three kids yeah investigators started digging into this
29:20
they interviewed the kids and they end up giving their real names and The Jig Is up and Mildred is reunited with the
29:26
kids finally oh yeah so at this point I promise I'm not gonna go into legal procedure this time
29:32
an emergency hearing is held for the custody of the kids which to me is the pivotal moment for everything that
29:38
happens Hereafter the judge give Mildred custody of the kids good yes John
29:45
is pissed what did he expect for a guy who for a
29:52
guy who needs control this was a massive massive Breaking Point yeah this moment
29:57
is basically what leads to everything that comes next people who knew John would talk about how this moment is the
30:02
moment that changed like he just stay up crying all night and like he just couldn't handle what was happening
30:08
the [ __ ] did he think was gonna happen oh you should have a great dad a person who just kidnapped your
30:15
children he also thought he was a great husband despite taking his wife to death so he didn't have the best Logic No
30:22
so yeah because at this point he viewed Mildred as the one who made him kind of lose everything which like
30:27
okay but what were her Alternatives not to fight for her kids not to try and get
30:33
them back safely yeah at this point John goes back to the homeless shelter and he calls Lee
30:38
because he's lost everything and he's just grappling trying to grasp whatever he can he calls Lee and tells him to
30:44
come up to Washington this happens in October of 2001. are you okay yeah yeah I'm just thinking
30:51
continue what are you thinking whether making a weird face when you what why why are you asking I'm
30:59
fine I was just thinking about this I was just thinking about you know the that
31:05
John like calling Lee for like helping you like this is a grown ass man you know who's like going through
31:11
emotional thing calling a teenager it's [ __ ] weird it's weird and like I just was thinking about that because I
31:16
was like that's like something that you teach your kids like grown-ups don't need kids for help you know like the
31:23
grown-ups should never if a grown-up asks you for directions like they're trying to kidnap you grown-ups don't need kids for help like they can they
31:29
they can talk to other adults you know like they shouldn't have to reach out to my kid so yeah yeah you can
31:34
identify it Lee would later mentioned that the pain he heard in John's voice about talking about his kids being taken
31:40
away from him just kind of hit him a certain way like like in a way that was like man I wish
31:45
somebody cared about me that much right that kind of a thing
31:51
so Lee looked at a situation in his mom in the abuse he faced with her and then
31:57
John who had never been mean to him and he made really the rational decision
32:02
to leave his mom to go be with Lee in Bellingham yeah
32:07
the story is basically Lee call John uh to wire him money for a bus ticket which
32:13
Sean did to get him up to Washington from Florida yeah so one thing I mentioned that
32:19
podcast you're wrong about that I thought was really good was they mentioned how sometimes a person can
32:24
make an extremely bad decision for reasons that make perfect sense and that's yeah so this I totally get why he did
32:32
what he did absolutely his mom was not nice to him he doesn't have anything like solid in his life except this man
32:38
who who was nice to him so Taylor I'm gonna Sidetrack here
32:44
I've been in situations before where I knew that if I let something play out
32:52
the way it seemed like it was gonna play out there would be dire consequences
33:00
but for anybody else to care the diary consequences would have to be realized
33:08
as opposed to how do you take action before the thing you see play out in
33:13
your mind happens I mean you know like I'm not gonna go into details about it here but like I've definitely done
33:19
things where it's like I knew that outcome was going to happen if I didn't take action but I had no
33:25
legal way of taking action so I'm like whatever I'm just gonna do whatever I got to do to make this thing not happen and yeah and that I thought about school
33:32
shootings and how you know it's like oh well my 18 year old son who's a senior in high schools
33:39
he's legally it's his property right to have a bunch of guns and it's just like there's times when you can see the
33:46
outcome in your mind and it is okay to be like [ __ ] the law and what that guy's
33:52
property rights are or what they're like yeah any rights are like you know what's going to end up happening if you don't
33:59
do something but like you don't in a lot of cases most people think they don't have a choice they gotta wait until the horrible horrible thing happens then
34:06
everybody else right right that's what reminds me of this I'm like there's so many people that came in and out of
34:11
Lee's life who could have like I don't care that she's your mom
34:17
yeah [ __ ] her parental rights like she's a horrible horrible mom who keeps abandoning you and you're clearly a
34:23
shattered shell of a child like just I'm gonna I'll just take the
34:29
kid like I don't I don't know I don't know I feel like yeah that sucks I mean it
34:35
feels like he well it feels like Lee didn't have much of a chance because of that for sure and I don't know like I do
34:41
know that I mean sometimes like even with like child custody things like you end up with a parent who's abusive or
34:47
because they have you know more money or whatever in a better lawyer or something
34:52
like that I mean it sounds like the best thing that happened for for John's kids is that they that milder got custody of
34:57
them even though that is the thing that like sparked John kind of going over the edge I think it's still like good for
35:03
the kids that they don't have to be with him anymore because he kidnapped them and imagine who knows what he was
35:10
telling them also like about their mother and about the government you know like who knows
35:16
what he was like what he could have molded his kids to be yeah
35:21
yeah well I bring it up here because going into the next part he's on his way
35:27
to Washington this is kind of game over because this
35:32
next section I headline brainwashing because at this point it's kind of like done like the the the cast has been died
35:39
is that the word no the dye has been cast thank you [Laughter]
35:45
you gotta have your cake and eat it too eat your cake and have it too you know whatever
35:51
because Kozinski Kozinski yeah okay so I I think under any circumstance a a
35:58
healthy human probably isn't wired to kill a person unprovoked
36:04
there's a ton of brainwashing that starts happening here between John and
36:10
Lee like Lee or John brainwashingly there's also another part of this that
36:16
struck me about how how much time matters depending on the age that you're at like I remember when I was in elementary school I think in a year was
36:22
the longest time I could possibly conceive of yeah and you look at this situation like this is only like a year to a year and a half of
36:28
Lee's life but that's like a that means he's like a fairly significant chunk like his relationship with John is like
36:35
a fairly significant chunk of his life so he races to him so again like I hate to you know excuse
36:43
find excuses for bad behavior but obviously I feel for Lee giving his background his impressionability his
36:49
Youth and the fact that he's just getting brainwashed by a psychopath essentially yeah 100 so during this time you know like I said
36:55
John indoctrinates Lee on Nation of Islam stuff like not like anything positive like it's all like the negative
37:03
stuff around like Supremacy and whatnot um they go to gun ranges and train his
37:09
Marksmanship quite a bit one detail that I that I read that was
37:15
amazing was that John would put up uh targets that had Lee's own face on them
37:21
that he had to shoot what yeah that is [ __ ] up yeah yeah they started from
37:29
this kind of father-son bomb but it feels like kind of like an abusive other Sun Bond of like
37:34
you have to listen unequivocally to what I tell you to do like there is no middle ground and he gets that like that's
37:40
exactly what what Lee becomes to him so let's get started with the crimes so like I said the shootings
37:48
didn't actually start in DC they escalated to they escalated from murders
37:53
in Washington which is where Lee and John are this time Washington State yeah exactly not DC
38:01
so back when John was married to Mildred Mildred had a friend who stepped in and helped them with understanding basically
38:07
like General accounting principles for businesses I have had a crash course on this and can tell you that it's not fun but
38:14
several things that I'll Intuit from this experience having done it myself was it is a
38:20
it's like being explained like a toddler how Basic Finance works from somebody
38:26
who actually understands it and I can imagine John having a woman step in and explain this stuff to him was
38:31
emasculating in some capacity yeah totally and then later when the separation and
38:37
custody battle was taking place this woman took Mildred's side so John had multiple
38:43
reasons to like he it sounds like you really simmered on how much he hated this woman her name is ISA I keep saying
38:49
this woman her name is ISA Nichols okay so in February of 2002 Lee was told to
38:54
go to This Woman's house and shoot her in the head unfortunately for everyone Isis niece
39:01
Kenya was at the house and opened the door Lee shot her in the face and killed her
39:07
she was 21 years old yeah oh no yeah there are so many of these I'm kind of
39:14
just gonna list them off because it's just someone shows up get shot on the face someone shows okay like it's just
39:21
that over and over and over again a month later they go to Tucson Arizona a six-year-old man named Jerry Taylor
39:27
was shot at long range on the golf course um we don't know for sure who did this
39:33
but the reason it comes up is because Lee and John were in Tucson at the time
39:38
and John's sister lived near this golf course and so the idea was it had to be
39:43
these guys in August a man named John Gator was
39:49
changing an attire that had been slashed by Lee in a parking lot in Louisiana Lee came up from behind and shot him in the
39:55
neck the guy plays dead Lee steals as a [ __ ] and then the guy who runs to seek help and he ultimately survives
40:02
September was a super busy month for them the following is just bullet points it all happens in September they shot a
40:09
guy named Paul larufa who was a pizzeria owner six times he survived an employee at a liquor store named Benny was shot
40:14
but survived another liquor store employee named Muhammad was shot and survived a 41 year
40:21
old employee of another liquor store was shot this one was actually killed they shot and killed someone named hung in
40:27
Ballinger in Louisiana like they just like are going on a spring right this is just their their Berserker spree mode
40:33
so this leads us from September into October which is when they enter the DC
40:38
Metro area again all this is going to have actual motive and it's all going to sound really stupid at the start of
40:44
October a 55 year old man named James Martin was shot and killed in a parking lot of a grocery store in Maryland
40:50
the next day four people were shot and killed within a two-hour window of time in one Maryland neighborhood
40:56
and another was killed in DC proper all these shootings were done at
41:01
distance with a high-powered rifle at this point John and Lee had moved
41:07
into Virginia they moved on into that territory in that region they shot a woman named Carolyn seawell who survived
41:14
the shot to the chest somehow they shot a 13 year old on his way to Middle School
41:19
they shot a man named Dean Harold Meyer while he was pumping gas they shot a businessman named Kenneth Bridges and
41:25
killed him while he was also pumping gas and they shot and killed an FBI analyst named Linda Franklin at a Home Depot
41:31
parking lot it's just spree um I think I like read
41:37
um some or saw something about this where
41:42
like a woman who was at the gas station one of the guys was shot and she was like it's so confusing because you're
41:48
like what the hell's going on you know it's like in in um is it in the jerk when he's like his cancer exploding do
41:55
you remember that oh yes yes I was trying to shoot him
42:00
because like you're like well where is coming from and then the woman that the story that's like I feel maybe one of
42:05
those guys that was shot at the gas station she was like she ran out to help him and she was like someone come help help me and everybody in the store was
42:11
like no because we know that I know the police were like we're not coming because we know that like someone is
42:17
shooting randomly and they've already shot this place so they didn't want to come but she was like trying to do it you're like because someone gets shot in
42:23
front of you just pumping gas you're like it takes you to like a different reality you're like what is happening you know and you can just like be
42:29
standing somewhere and get shot that's crazy yeah it's like it's scary so anytime something happens that like
42:34
breaks the Matrix you're like yes yeah so it took five days for them to take
42:42
action again like for them to start doing this again and on October 19th they shot a guy named Jeffrey Hooper in
42:48
a parking lot other Steakhouse then two days later a bus driver was shot whilst just basically standing outside of the bus depot yeah
42:55
yeah they're on a I mean but like I hate to put it this way like you're
43:01
broke you have no money you live out of a car I mean this was probably the most
43:06
exciting and interesting thing they could do all day is just go finding people to shoot like it's a horrible way to think about it but like totally I
43:12
mean they're probably I don't know you'll get to the motive but if like they probably felt like they were doing like something
43:18
right it was incredibly stupid I'm never gonna lay off that
43:23
so you'll notice that obviously they're bouncing around quite a bit and obviously a bus wasn't gonna keep
43:28
working for them to get from place to place right at this point um it's worth discussing
43:34
the Blue Caprice there's actually a movie about the shootings called Just Blue Caprice it's a car yeah that's the
43:41
car it's a Chevrolet it's a big old-timey clunky piece of [ __ ] it was a 1990s model
43:47
um do you know what these look like I'm gonna look it up yeah yeah it's I don't know why but for some reason the
43:54
car feels menacing to me it's almost like Christine oh yeah oh I see it well I'm looking I
43:59
obviously see this blue quiz it does look like yeah yeah I get it yeah I don't know oh that's an odd color I feel
44:05
like I don't see cars like that right so fun fact it used to
44:11
be an undercover police car yeah before they bought it
44:16
so it was actually a strategically good buy for them because for one it was obviously cheap I mean looking you can
44:22
tell it was cheap for another one it was a huge vehicle yeah like I said like because they had no money they were
44:28
living inside the car and then they would also just shoot people through a modified trunk they had a hole cut in it
44:34
to allow a gun barrel to protrude how would you ever find them yeah that
44:41
that is like it's so it is so random that you're like there there is no
44:46
there's no Rhyme or Reason yeah yeah and look I I hate to give kudos for this but
44:53
this was actually like a pretty smart move it means the bully bullet casings never get lost right like you shoot it
44:59
stays in the car you're always hidden and you can make an incredibly quick getaway
45:05
yeah the fact that it was a blue Caprice was also kind of a problem for a while
45:11
because when they shot that guy at the Home Depot the parking lot someone
45:16
stupidly lied about what they saw they said they saw a white van flee the scene
45:21
so police were on the lookout for a white van which like that's like one out of every five vehicles on the highway
45:26
absolutely yeah that's I mean don't get into one we've already covered that but like but
45:33
yeah why but that's wildly different than a blue Caprice so if you're looking for a white van you're not at all in my direction yeah yeah there's
45:41
a sad story about how like at one point the police found two guys in a white van they were like we got the guys we got
45:46
the guys it turned out to be like two immigrants were illegal and they end up getting deported like some some people just want to be a part of a story like
45:52
they're such losers they want to be like close to us like I saw something it's like you didn't see [ __ ]
45:58
so let's get into the arrest so five days after that last shooting on October
46:04
24th the two were asleep in the car at a truck stop when police were tipped off
46:09
by people who were at that stop I'm gonna I label this part ins side
46:15
quest because there is an ins component of this that comes in handy I didn't
46:20
mention this before but at one point while John and Lee were at the homeless shelter in Bellingham Lee got picked up by the ins for being an illegal
46:26
immigrant okay and because of this he had his fingerprints taken oh and one of the crime scenes early on
46:33
when they weren't using the rifle or using like a handgun he'd used a handgun like a pistol to
46:38
shoot someone in a partial print was found on the shell casing okay they
46:44
matched that against the ins database to Lee so police go to his last known whereabouts which is where he got picked
46:50
up which is when in Bellingham with his homeless shelter and the guy who runs the shelter tells them all about John
46:56
so they look him up and realize he had a vehicle registration in his name because that was another part that was assuming
47:03
it's like he had all this forged documentation but he writes to name it yeah like even I know not to do that
47:08
right if you if you know how to forge documentation do it for yourself at least yeah yeah so it all matched this
47:15
Blue Caprice which is the only way they kind of came off of the white man narrative
47:20
this info along with the car's license plate number is immediately disseminated throughout the DC Metro area so DC
47:26
Maryland Virginia all these folks have this information and it's obviously picked up on scanners by the media
47:31
outlet and that's how people were able to identify this car in the license plate was because the media just spread
47:38
this everywhere but do they think that they do they know that they're the snipers are they just trying to pick up Lee because of immigration no no they
47:46
this is all tired of their sniping case they're they're like they're like there's some some correlation between
47:51
these disciplined murders I also didn't get into this but they started like doing this like BTK thing
47:57
of like leaving like you know tarot cards and like just yeah
48:03
they're trying to do the like tying it all together like the wet Bandits you know whatever house you guys hit because
48:08
you have the you left the water out on every house yeah that's exactly what
48:13
they were they're going for so they get they're arrested without incident and I can only imagine when the interior of
48:19
this car smelled like um the trial began in 2003 John was
48:24
found guilty and sent us to death Lee was also found guilty but sentenced to life
48:29
he's a child well other states were seeking the death penalty for Lee but
48:35
around this time the Supreme Court had ruled in a case called Roper versus Simmons that it was against the 18th
48:40
Amendment or the eighth amendment to execute someone for crimes they committed when they were under the age of 18. that took death off the table for
48:48
Lee so John was ultimately executed on November 10th of 2009 he made no final
48:53
statement and that was basically the end of his garbage life one thing to note is that it actually
48:59
does appear as though Lee did most if not all the murders hmm
49:06
that's why I said earlier this is kind of like a Charles Manson situation like John is the bad guy
49:11
for sure but they didn't actually do the thing interesting yeah
49:16
it's weird yeah totally totally the 18th Amendment is prohibition I just look at
49:22
that this was the eighth amendment Eighth Amendment okay what's the Eighth
49:27
Amendment grown unusual ah okay thank you no yeah I get exactly exactly what
49:34
you're saying like he was The Mastermind they're grooming this young man who obviously should you know killed a [ __ ]
49:41
ton of people so yeah should be in jail but yeah exactly so Lee Lee is still in
49:47
prison he is now 37 years old he has reached out to multiple family
49:52
members of his victims and apologized for his behavior in 2020 he got married
49:57
and he's been continued you yeah ladies there's plenty of none
50:05
incarcerated people to marry go to the produce section and find one to the grocery store find yourself a man
50:12
and that's the kale don't I mean regardless of
50:18
his grooming or in his apologies like don't marry me in prison I won't send lots of serial killers I
50:25
don't know what the appeal is but yeah it goes without saying he's been denied parole continuously and realistically
50:32
he's probably just gonna stay in jail forever um so I kept teasing the motive Taylor
50:39
what do you think the motive was I don't know Fame guns
50:46
get his kids back what's my guesses the motive was he wanted to kill Mildred
50:52
but he knew that if he went to kill Mildred they wouldn't know it was him oh so he was killing other people so it
50:59
would seem like a random thing yeah oh my gosh it's so dumb like he killed all these people or had
51:06
them killed so that he could just circled back to Mildred and kill her eventually oh my God a Mildred is fine
51:13
she's thriving she's driving yeah oh that is so dumb those poor people
51:19
yeah so that's the story like I said look I think that on Mildred's front
51:25
learning that he's married after you've been dating like it was all or foregone conclusion that I thought I think it was
51:31
a foreign conclusion this was he was a psycho I mean they're saying that naturally you got to be a psycho to be
51:37
able to carry on that kind of narcissistic behavior and I think Lee was
51:43
kind of just doomed from the jump yeah
51:48
definitely anyways that's my story hopefully my voice doesn't sound too you
51:54
sound great I don't think you do but that's super sad no I'm glad I could I'm
51:59
glad I get to you so what do you have for us today Taylor okay well I mentioned that our
52:08
red between our two is being executed and for crimes so we will talk about
52:13
that and I wanted to ask you a question bars in the world
52:19
right now um what are you afraid of so I have three things that
52:25
are part of the story that are sort of Evergreen the existential threats that people are afraid of
52:30
um I have a new one that I'm afraid of but right now is there anything like globally that you're afraid of
52:35
globally that I'm afraid of global
52:41
awfulness what could ruin the whole world I mean okay like obviously like a nuclear bomb
52:46
going off that's it that's the correct answer okay well there you go so today we're talking
52:51
about three things that you should be afraid of one is communism but not really because
52:57
communism is just a red herring for other things two is nuclear war which I
53:02
am very scared of and three is electric chairs so like you're not probably gonna die in another chair but we'll talk
53:08
about it and how awful it is those are three things that are scary I'm also currently afraid of AI just in general
53:14
and I'm kind of afraid of everything so just wanted to put that out there so Taylor do you think that if we were to
53:21
go to war that they would use like the other country would use nukes on Joshua Tree
53:29
talk about that in a second I don't think I'm far I'm I think I'm close enough that yes I think I'm [ __ ]
53:34
but I'll talk about that okay in a second okay so today we're going to talk about Julius
53:40
and Ethel Rosenberg who are two American citizens who were killed in the electric chair for selling nuclear secrets to the
53:46
Soviet Union I don't know if selling isn't the right word they gave them to the Soviet Union
53:51
so some of our red flags for this couple they seem like a pretty normal couple like they you know loved each other they
53:57
had two kids um they were pretty like you know innocent looking innocent seeming but the red flags are you know they're
54:02
Communists card carrying Communists in America in the 40s and 50s which is not like a great thing to be because it is
54:08
McCarthyism people are mad at Communists and they went further than just you know
54:14
attending rallies and wanting like a more socialist equal Society like a lot of young Communists did
54:20
um because the actual red flag is they were spies so so being a spy
54:26
is not good for your family especially in this case some of the sources that I use I listen
54:32
to a podcast called Civics 101 about Espionage and the rosenbergs I watched
54:37
half of a documentary that their granddaughter made she made it in the early 2000s called heir to an execution
54:43
and I only watched half of it because she was very much like they're innocent I can't believe all this happened and
54:49
like they're not innocent like I know that like nobody wants their grandparents to be
54:54
Soviet spies but they were it's a way cooler story than they're
54:59
innocent like I I would yeah it's like who cares it has no impact on you in today's like it's over I mean yeah I
55:06
think it's kind of it's kind of cool rather than being like let's exonerate them being like yeah they're respires they did all this cool spy [ __ ]
55:12
it was bad but yes um and then also watched an American Justice show on the rosenbergs and then
55:19
Wikipedia and chat gbt for some filler so that's those are my sources but let's
55:24
talk about who they were so Julius and Ethel um they were you know a couple in New York City Julius was born on May 12th of
55:32
1918. his parents were Jewish immigrant immigrants from Russia pre-World War one
55:37
they ended up living on the Lower East Side which is an awesome neighborhood where I lived as
55:43
as well it definitely has its ups and downs and this is like a down time for for New York City it's you know
55:49
depression time it's it's not great um but Julius went to City College of New York he had got a degree in
55:54
electrical engineering and he began to get involved into left-wing politics while he was in college and mostly like
56:01
labor activism protests against the rise of fascism so also that we're seeing over seeing now
56:08
you know um people try to unionize and not be fascist
56:13
so similar times repeating itself Ethel was born Ethel Green Glass in 1915. she
56:20
was also interested in the Arts she wanted to be an opera singer by all accounts she was really good at it wanted to be like an actor or a singer
56:26
but ended up being a secretary and she started to get interested in Liberal relations and she met Julius when she
56:33
joined the young communist League or he was a leader is this not a point in time when
56:40
it's dangerous to join the Communists yeah okay so they knew they were doing they were agitators yeah yes so we're
56:48
coming up to the time when you know Senator McCarthy is doing the like
56:53
the the red skier on like a federal level and this is like in New York City
56:58
so they don't cross paths with him but he definitely you know tainted the water for for being a communist being like a
57:06
bad thing and there's like some some like stock footage I think in the documentary that I watched where you
57:12
know there's like a communist parade and like join the Communist party and people are like cheering at them so it's like a
57:18
thing um it's also wait actually this is actually kind of what I'm going to come up next is
57:24
so Julius and Ethel were married in 1939 she was 24 he was 21. and it was a hard
57:31
depression time crazy poverty you see people on bread lines like nobody has a job so there's a lot of radicalizing for
57:39
a lot of people and communism was attractive because it has the ideas of
57:44
an ideal Society where everybody you know shares what they have so there's no more starving people on the street and
57:52
can I Sidetrack you real quick of course what do you think about communism I think it's a good idea but I don't
57:58
think I think you shouldn't have someone in charge who takes all the money which is like what we're doing now with
58:04
capitalism but I do think that you should take care of each other so I think I mean I feel like I would say
58:09
more like Democratic socialism it makes more is more sense in practice but
58:15
I like the idea of not letting people starve and not having billionaires okay what do you think
58:22
I think that it's a great concept if you completely negate human decision making and will and
58:30
desire out of the equation yeah because I was going to be someone who wants more or whatever and like I do too like I
58:35
don't wanna but I do like the idea of not letting people starve if if we were if we were
58:43
better it would be a great concept yeah exactly people can't handle it I think it's a good a good thing to say yeah and
58:50
so actually I have a quote from Jay Edgar Hoover about communism and he said communism is in reality is
58:59
not a political party it is a way of life an evil and malignant way of life it reveals a condition akin to disease
59:06
that spreads like an epidemic and like an epidemic a quarantine is necessary to keep it from infecting this nation
59:12
so um which made me laugh also because quarantine is good a good metaphor when it's on your side but then they also
59:19
like people don't want to quarantine it was actually an epidemic so that made me laugh a little bit so
59:25
they're in this place where they're idealizing young Communists dreaming of a socialist country and they believed
59:31
the Soviet Union was the answer to this problem so they really are like they think it's
59:37
perfect over there and either they don't know or they don't see the bad things so either they like didn't see all of
59:43
the starving millions of people starved to death during the war or they didn't see all the poverty and the things that
59:49
are happening under under communism over there so they just really think it's it's perfect and you know in theory I
59:55
wrote you know in theory it makes sense but it doesn't work because people are awful what we just talked about
1:00:01
um so they get married at the beginning of World War II and almost right away
1:00:07
um you know the crime part of their story starts so their case became a
1:00:14
symbol for fear and paranoia around the Cold War around communism and you know
1:00:20
people let any of their supporters said that the rosenbergs were kind of set up for political Witch Hunt
1:00:26
um it's been kind of a controversial case you know since since it happened and we'll talk about exactly what that
1:00:31
means but there are you know despite all of the ongoing debate I'll just say this now so
1:00:36
like there's some stuff that was released in the mid-2000s so despite all the back and forth since their case for
1:00:43
like 50 years or so the stuff that's released pretty much proves that they did do it they did they were Soviet spies he
1:00:50
um Julius he definitely was involved in passing nuclear secrets to the Soviet Union and it confirmed that he had a
1:00:57
central role on this Espionage so they definitely did the thing they were accused of and then the question is like
1:01:02
what about the Zeitgeist around their story you didn't get into how they had access
1:01:09
this material right yeah okay yeah so here's what were they accused of doing
1:01:16
and how do they do it so it involves like their whole lives all the people that they know and they were convicted
1:01:23
of conspiracy to commit Espionage and passing Atomic Secrets they're part of aspiring that included Americans and
1:01:30
um some Soviet citizens who shared military secrets and nuclear weapons during World War II Julia's worked in
1:01:38
the Army signal Corps laboratory in New Jersey where he had access to classified documents so that's where he kind of
1:01:44
gets it from and she ended up being a secretary there as well and so she well
1:01:51
her one of her like big things is typing up all these notes and typing up and copying everything it's sent to the Soviet Union
1:01:57
immediately he starts passing information to uh this to the Soviet
1:02:02
Union via his wife and other members of aspiring um and now World War II is over and it's
1:02:10
the Cold War so the Cold War lasted from 1945 do you know when the Cold War ended
1:02:16
first if um but I guess it had to be like the 70
1:02:21
or no 80 it would have been Reagan Era so like 84. it's 91. oh wow yeah which feels
1:02:28
late that like that that feels late for me because I was like alive during the Cold War I feel like I've seen something that was such a long time ago but it
1:02:35
just took a little bit of time line so World War one was the end of the
1:02:40
Russian Empire and then towards the end of world war one there was a Russian Civil War that went from 1917 to 1922
1:02:47
and then 1922 it became the Soviet Union which was the USSR and then after it
1:02:53
dissolved in 1991 it became 15 separate countries and that's where we still have Russia now
1:02:58
so there's more to that but that's kind of what we're looking at um and as far as what do you know about
1:03:04
the Cold War like what do you feel like when I say Cold War game was an
1:03:09
incredibly tense time that required a lot of people to like have cool heads and yeah
1:03:16
um I I I've seen uh so my one of my favorite movies my favorite like historical movies that's kind of stupid
1:03:23
to say that way is 13 days which has Kevin Costner in it so you know it's
1:03:28
gonna be good but it's about it's another 13 days of the um Cuban Missile Crisis and how
1:03:35
so many pieces were moving and so many people had to just
1:03:40
not respond in anger or irrationally and it's kind of a miracle we're not we
1:03:46
didn't self-destruct at that time oh totally totally yeah I wrote the things I know like the Bay of Pigs so nuclear
1:03:53
weapons being real close to America Sputnik so people were kind of freaking out because you know the Russians were
1:03:58
the first to um put a satellite into space and people like went outside and I thought they
1:04:04
could see it they were just like you know it was the first one it was really scary um it was a race to the mute to the Moon
1:04:10
there was all this stuff in Cuba so yeah exactly a lot of fear about nuclear war a lot of like hiding under desks and
1:04:16
like at school and trying to figure out what would happen if it happened so I also feel this is what I'm saying
1:04:21
about living in Joshua Tree so I feel like very scared of nuclear war right now
1:04:27
maybe irrationally but also maybe rationally and sometimes I live next to a military base so one of like the
1:04:33
biggest military bases in the country is like next door so so all the time I hear
1:04:38
bombs going off so it'll shake my house and sometimes at night they'll do like a ton of military training and there'll be
1:04:44
tons of bombs in a row and it'll be really loud and shaky and I can hear it so it definitely like makes it a Target
1:04:51
and then also because I'm kind of crazy and over and a little a little paranoid
1:04:57
like whatever the internet goes out or like the the power goes out I'm like this is it and I look to the to the
1:05:03
north west and I look for the for the cloud over LA because I'm like this is it I'll see the cloud from my house I
1:05:09
probably would see the cloud from my house I would definitely see the flash when La gets nuked so
1:05:15
um yeah you've really you've really done the math on this I did I mean I was set up last night but I already think about it anyway so it's very tense and I feel
1:05:22
tense right now thinking about it and it it's like mostly just me it's not like
1:05:27
everywhere over the media like it was during the Cold War people were like really really afraid of us
1:05:33
so so you think you're in New York it's a very very tense time it's a cold war
1:05:38
things are scary the world World War II just ended but it didn't like end everything and so
1:05:44
Julius and Ethel during this time they're just living their lives they have two sons if you saw them like out
1:05:50
on the town you wouldn't think twice about them and a lot of it is still speculation like what they did but again
1:05:56
like I said they did it they were spies I watched the dot in the dock with a granddaughter you know where she was like I wish that they could be
1:06:04
um exonerated but they're not so Julius becomes involved in the Communist
1:06:09
party it's believed that in 1942 so they've been married for a couple years is when he made contact with Soviet
1:06:15
intelligent intelligence agents and started to pass Secrets some of the things that he is accused of doing
1:06:22
sharing secrets with spies and one cool thing that they did is they would be like okay you have to meet your like
1:06:30
the Spy fars you know in this place so they would take a Jello box and cut it
1:06:35
in half in like a weird way and then you would take half of it and then they would give the other half to the person
1:06:40
you're supposed to meet and you would know it was them when your Jello box is matched up so you got to just keep going up to
1:06:46
people with Jello boxes and like tap the jello box and see yes yes it seems a little bit suspicious but
1:06:53
that's how you know you're talking to the right person like the right the right person on the other end he shared thousands of documents about jet
1:06:59
fighters and missiles like all those things so during this time like right after World War II especially we were
1:07:04
still and during World War II we were still allies with the Soviet Union but we weren't sharing secrets so like
1:07:10
during World War II you know we were um you know we were friends but
1:07:16
um also like after World War II ends ends the Soviet Union stops being an ally and as a child of the 80s you know
1:07:24
which is the Cold War apparently I just learned now I always pictured you know Stalin
1:07:30
and the Russians as the bad guys and so I was I was surprised when you know to see the pictures of him and FDR and
1:07:35
church all together you know I think this was one of those um the enemy of my enemy yeah I don't think that they
1:07:41
actually wanted to be unfriendly terms I think it was like we got to defeat Germany so let's just get it together
1:07:48
yes um there are some fun stories of like Churchill and FDR going to Russia to or
1:07:53
like the USSR to meet with Stalin and when they uh get there
1:07:59
Stalin's like come and stay in our nicest castle and it was like awful and Churchill's like freezing and like in
1:08:04
his underwear trying to find like vodka you know just like that that sounds delightful that thing would be fun
1:08:11
that sounds like that sounds like it could be a little movie comedy show yes I think that I mean
1:08:17
for better or worse I do with like a comedy of Churchill just like running around in his underwear because he did that a lot I think that could be
1:08:23
delightful to watch um so now so now when he starts actually
1:08:30
passing the stuff we're actually in the cold war with the Russians so they're definitely like the the enemies at this point and another big
1:08:36
part of the story is that Ethel's brother was actually working on the Manhattan Project in Los Alamos so he
1:08:43
was like in it with like the the creation of the nuclear bombs so
1:08:49
in 1947 the FBI begins investigating them and other card carrying Communists
1:08:56
for suspected Espionage they were arrested in 1950 and charged with conspiracy to commit Espionage David
1:09:02
Greenglass who's Ethel's brother who worked at the Manhattan Project is arrested first and then just rats out
1:09:08
everybody and David Green Glass lives for a long time he dies in late 2004. so he
1:09:14
definitely like sold out his fellow spies so that he would get a lighter sentence
1:09:19
and in 1951 the rosenbergs are tried and found guilty of Espionage so when they
1:09:26
go through their things and find all the things that they that they shared with the Soviets they do find a cross-section
1:09:31
of the fat man bomb which is a bomb that was dropped on on Hiroshima and then also in the documentary The
1:09:37
granddaughter she's like she sees that picture of the National Archives and she's like oh my gosh like there's no
1:09:42
way that the Soviets could have made a thing from this is one little picture you know you're like no I feel like any
1:09:49
nuclear secrets sharing is bad yeah there's not a Gray Line yeah there's no
1:09:54
there's no like oh this is this doesn't seem like a big deal like no it's a big deal if they even have that connection at all yeah like it's a big deal
1:10:01
so the central sentence to death and it's a big cultural moment because actually the rosenbergs are the only
1:10:07
people to be um executed for Espionage during technically peace time and so it was
1:10:13
like it's a cold war but it wasn't like an actual like during the World War where people were executed like you know kind of a
1:10:20
lot so it's a big cultural moment some people are really really mad at them for sharing these secrets and I met you like
1:10:26
I get it some people think they're innocent and some people is like how matter are
1:10:32
we that we need Martyrs is the punishment equal to the crime was there a crime did the brother throw them under the bus so they look so nice so there's
1:10:38
so many things that people are you know going back and forth a bond but you know
1:10:43
they did it and they were guilty so it also comes up do you ever read the Bell jar
1:10:49
by Sylvia Plath no so it's like a book about like a woman who's depressed
1:10:55
very there's a lot work to it sure but she also thinks about the rosenbergs a lot and so during in the beginning of
1:11:00
the book she's like reading the paper and she sees that they've been um they've been executed and it kind of brings up this feeling of isolation that
1:11:07
could happen to anyone so that is kind of like the cultural feeling is like well anyone could be convicted of being
1:11:12
a spy it could be anyone it could be your neighbor you know kind of like making people more suspicious of each
1:11:17
other as well I don't know you just look at your W-2 does it say Los Alamos nuclear bunker on it like if it doesn't
1:11:24
then you're probably not likely totally I was wondering Taylor is any like given
1:11:29
the time period that we're in was there any hints of like maybe anti-Semitism played into this severity
1:11:35
of their punishment you know what I didn't look that up but possibly because it's definitely that also like
1:11:41
another form of like being the other you know there's so many other rhythms here like that are communists that's otherism
1:11:48
you're Jewish that's otherism like totally yeah you know I I would imagine
1:11:54
probably but I don't but I don't didn't like read that specifically but that's a good call out and a good question
1:12:01
um so in 1953 they're executed in the electric chair at sing-sing prison in
1:12:07
New York do you know what happens when you're executed via the electric chair so your heart stops
1:12:15
um I'm not sure what the mechanics and physiology of that are but I think that that's how you ultimately are killed
1:12:23
see or read The Green Mile yes so remember how like he like doesn't do
1:12:28
the sponge on the guy's head and then it's like catches on fire so like a wet sponge needs to be involved so the
1:12:35
electric chair was first used in the United States in the late 19th century so it involves strapping a person into a
1:12:41
chair electrodes attached to their heads and legs and then administering a powerful electric shock so the wet
1:12:47
sponge stops it from catching on fire which is crazy and so there's just there's usually
1:12:54
two shocks when the first switch is flipped and electric current goes through your body which causes the
1:12:59
muscles to contract and then you pass out so it just like shocks you and you
1:13:05
pass out and then the second switch is the one that like kills all your organs
1:13:11
like you said it kills your heart because like organs and then you die it can also you know sometimes people
1:13:17
you'll get like severe burns and other injuries like while it's happening like it's not it's not a not it's a very
1:13:23
cruel way to die and julius's went fine as far as electric electric electric
1:13:30
electrocution goes but ethels did not so she actually had to be shocked four times before she died and people saw
1:13:36
smoke coming out of her head so it was pretty awful the first Joel jolt didn't render her unconscious it took a couple
1:13:42
more to end her life um they were not the electrodes were not properly properly placed so the
1:13:49
electricity rather than going to her vital organs went to her head so that's an awful way to go and
1:13:56
so it was publicized that it was botched execution which definitely made it made
1:14:01
like the debate even stronger as to be like why are we executing these people or even doing capital punishment all of
1:14:09
that so after their death was a big thing and the questions are like what did they
1:14:15
share do we kill spies this publicly um I'm sure we do but you know maybe
1:14:21
it's not always in the news it seems so normal did they do it so it's not all
1:14:26
100 and like it's not very clear everything they did do which makes sense because you don't want to like put the
1:14:31
Spy Secrets out but it's just like these people were spies so in around 2005 the National Archives and Records
1:14:37
Administration released a portion of the grand jury testimony so it shed some new
1:14:43
light on the case and gave us some more details so it did confirm that Ethel knew what she was doing when she typed
1:14:48
up the documents so when she typed up and copied the secrets that Julius was stealing from from work and her brother
1:14:55
was stealing from Los Alamos she knew what she was doing it confirmed that Julius was a big part of a spy ring
1:15:01
um their code names were found in Soviet cables and the key witness was Ethel's brother so
1:15:08
he's the one that threw everybody under the bus and like told on everybody and got them got them executed
1:15:13
so that makes it all true and then some of the questions that like I
1:15:19
kind of want to end with is like so the red flags are like they were spies and they were sending
1:15:24
secrets to the Soviet Union which was bad but they believed they were doing a good thing because they believed in this
1:15:31
utopian idea of like socialism and communism and they thought that was happening so were they just like people
1:15:40
who believed in a perfect Society were they traitors were they scapegoats for you know this Cold War era thing and in
1:15:48
the end I think you kind of believe what what you want to believe I think they were kids when they started they believed in a perfect Society but
1:15:55
obviously across the line when they shared secrets and a question that I had like late last
1:16:01
night thinking about this is you know what is okay spying if you want a better world and you're spying for a better world because that justifiable but once
1:16:08
you open the door to nuclear secrets then I'm like and that's a hard no because I don't
1:16:14
want anyone to know anything about nuclear secrets I don't want anyone to do it at all um I wish that there was never any
1:16:20
nuclear anything so um that's where I think like for me I'm
1:16:26
like okay well I don't know if the public execution essentially was you know the right the right thing to do but
1:16:32
also like they definitely did you know a bad thing um whether they knew they were doing it or
1:16:38
not you know what I mean I yeah I um what I was thinking of was that in a lot
1:16:44
of situations the um outcomes are very directly tied to the actions so for
1:16:51
example like with Lee boy novel or with John Muhammad getting executed it's like
1:16:56
that was directly tied you did a really really bad thing and people died because of it in this case
1:17:02
it's so far removed think of all the things that have to happen for the bad outcomes to actually be realized like yes feel the material you have to copy
1:17:09
it you have to translate it you have to send it you have to tie Jello cups together yeah hand it off
1:17:15
they have to go out and backwards engineer develop it and then all of a sudden then the bad outcome could be
1:17:20
realized but the outcome is so the gravitas of that outcome is so heavy that
1:17:25
[Music] it kind of justifies the result yeah totally it's like exactly so the things
1:17:31
that you're doing aren't you're not shooting someone from the back of a car you know like you're not
1:17:37
like doing things like like that but you what you're doing is directly going to affect no matter how long it takes the
1:17:44
possibility of like Global Annihilation yeah you know and like this and then
1:17:49
that obviously like then we have this tense Cold War for 40 years and we have today when there's like I just like hit
1:17:56
my microphone we have today when there's like balloons and you know you know whatever all this stuff means but it's pretty scary and I think the rosenberg's
1:18:03
had like a direct um effect on on getting getting those secrets and getting that stuff over to
1:18:09
to the to the Soviet Union so um it's a scary thing that they did and then and whether or not they like
1:18:15
realized the global implications I think that yeah you're right like they did a bad thing yeah I um so I again I don't me and
1:18:24
Tyler don't talk about research ahead of time like I long ago looked down on this spy rabbit hole and I remember thinking
1:18:32
the same thought about this guy named Robert Hansen I don't know if you've ever heard of him before but he was an
1:18:37
FBI intelligence analyst and he did the same thing he passed on
1:18:42
um I don't know what it was a long time ago I don't remember what exactly passed on but I remember reading about his punishment I was like I was like At
1:18:48
first I was like man that's heavy he got yeah he was um put in edx
1:18:55
super max in Florence which I don't know if you know much about that but it's a
1:19:00
terrifying place it sounds like that's where the 911 people ended up that's where Timothy McVeigh Ted Kaczynski
1:19:08
um El Chapo like it is you're a dead human walking yeah like it
1:19:15
is the worst of the worst punishments and yeah at the time I was like it's like that's so heavy extreme yeah but
1:19:22
then you look at like again the downstream impact of the decisions that guy made and it's like
1:19:28
kind of makes sense yeah kind of makes sense and like maybe he didn't even know
1:19:34
that imagine that that was going to be the outcome yeah but like those little
1:19:39
things and like they they snowball into potentially being
1:19:45
a really really really bad thing yeah yeah so hopefully this
1:19:50
this episode gets published tomorrow and we're not annihilated by nuclear war but
1:19:56
we'll see it could be today why I'm sitting under my desk how are they doomed to fail
1:20:03
um I think because they started to they started with this idealistic view of the
1:20:09
world and being better but they didn't have all the details so maybe if the Doom DeVille is not knowing all the details because they thought that the
1:20:15
Soviet Union was this perfect place when it wasn't which we know and they were
1:20:20
very idealistic and so they just went down this path of trying to get somewhere that was
1:20:29
impossible it was impossible to you know have a perfect communist country and it's impossible to
1:20:35
you know have a better world with having nuclear secret shares you know like keeping
1:20:41
nuclear secrets hostage and like kind of glooming that above
1:20:47
everybody I think is is not a way to peace but I think that they were doomed and like they they really wanted a
1:20:53
peaceful world and they start they thought the way to do it was to kind of equalize this threat and
1:21:00
um once they kind of did that there was no turning back yeah you know and they you know they died on the same
1:21:06
day their their poor kids ended up in like homes and they're you know just they're like my mom was a normal mom you
1:21:13
know but you're like well she wasn't she wasn't no yeah kids if you think your ideology is
1:21:20
worth doing anything for chill out a little bit oh real that's a 100
1:21:27
it'll all be okay like the pendulum always swings I know that everything seems like the biggest still possible
1:21:33
yes always always swings yes yes and if
1:21:38
someone starts to recruit you to doing things that are like secret then like you're probably gonna be in trouble
1:21:45
yeah and you should calm down yeah yeah so enjoy your glass of vodka uh I know I
1:21:53
need I do need some vodka I'll buy some for when I do see that
1:21:58
mushroom cloud it's 9 31 a.m over there isn't it uh yeah it is I don't have any vodka but
1:22:05
I can go buy some good good well thank you Taylor for your story as
1:22:13
far as I'm glad I think those tied together I think we're talking about you know the big things and why people do do
1:22:21
go off the edge maybe we should talk about what we're gonna we should discuss our topics
1:22:26
before we do them we could do that I mean yeah but like I don't want to change our topic because I
1:22:31
just can't research two things in a week yeah that's fair that's fine we'll figure it out but thanks everyone for
1:22:37
listening and thank you for your feedback and thank you for your reviews on on Apple podcasts please do that if
1:22:44
you haven't already please tell people I'm trying to tell everyone that I know but please tell
1:22:49
more people email us at doomed to failpod gmail.com if you have any ideas follow on social media at Doom to
1:22:57
failpod thanks Taylor thanks for I hope you feel better I hope so too I'm gonna go ahead and kill the recording okay
1:23:05
[Music]